View Poll Results: Should there be a separate frequency for practice distress calls instead of 121.5?
Yes (I am a professional pilot)
363
45.60%
No (I am a professional pilot)
240
30.15%
Yes (I am a recreational pilot)
79
9.92%
No (I am a recreational pilot)
78
9.80%
Don't know or don't care (I may or may not even be a pilot)
36
4.52%
Voters: 796. This poll is closed
Abuse on 121.5
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Join Date: May 2006
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Abuse on 121.5
Forgive the intrusion into your CAT forum. Just thought I'd pop in and congratulate the "professional" pilot overhead Birmingham this afternoon who, when a GA aircraft called London Centre today for a practice pan told the pilot of the GA aircraft to Pi$$ off...... Go on, give yourself a big pat on the back, well done, what an aviator, absolute credit to your profession...........
Diddley Dee
Diddley Dee
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Because all transmissions on 121.5 are automatically DF fixed and instantly displayed in front of the D&D controllers.
And..... we then plot the DF fix onto the radar screen alongside the DF display which will then show the squawk of the aircraft concerned with the digits callsign code converted into the aircraft callsign displayed on the radar screen.
So..... swearing on 121.5 at the controllers / other aircraft isnt terribly bright as we can see who it is.
DD
And..... we then plot the DF fix onto the radar screen alongside the DF display which will then show the squawk of the aircraft concerned with the digits callsign code converted into the aircraft callsign displayed on the radar screen.
So..... swearing on 121.5 at the controllers / other aircraft isnt terribly bright as we can see who it is.
DD
I would have thought that this is fairly obvious. Anyone who calls on 121.5 in the UK is immediately going to be fixed by triangulation by D & D.
It would be really excellent if said organisation could positively identify the ignorant pillock.
It would be really excellent if said organisation could positively identify the ignorant pillock.
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It never ceases to amaze me the number of pilots who seem unclear as to the purpose of 121.5.
DO NOT transmit on 121.5 unless your message is of critical importance to the safety and security of aerial navigation.
That includes the posse of 'guard deputies' who seem to spend their entire flight with their thumb on the trigger to castigate the first break of static.
I listened in disbelief the other day whilst a rescue operation, which as it happens was being conducted in French, was continuallly interrupted by several of these self-appointed 'point 5 police.
They should be ashamed.
DO NOT transmit on 121.5 unless your message is of critical importance to the safety and security of aerial navigation.
That includes the posse of 'guard deputies' who seem to spend their entire flight with their thumb on the trigger to castigate the first break of static.
I listened in disbelief the other day whilst a rescue operation, which as it happens was being conducted in French, was continuallly interrupted by several of these self-appointed 'point 5 police.
They should be ashamed.
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Err, he's in Uxbridge...
That tells me all I need to know!
(Other than that this was probably a pilot peed off with the GA fraternity's interruptions on a frequncy which has become the de facto box 2 default. Yes, I know that it's abused by professional airframe drivers too, but I do firmly believe that until it can be a sterile frequency, it won't be...)
That tells me all I need to know!
(Other than that this was probably a pilot peed off with the GA fraternity's interruptions on a frequncy which has become the de facto box 2 default. Yes, I know that it's abused by professional airframe drivers too, but I do firmly believe that until it can be a sterile frequency, it won't be...)
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Well,...
personnaly, I'm getting sick and tired to monitor 121.5 as good airmainship would dictate, to hear some idiot sending a " practice MAYDAY Call " every other minute...
In my days, When I practiced a forced landing, I didn't press the transmit button, and the only people who heard my simulated MAYDAY where...just me...., not the 70 commercial aeroplanes in the region...
whoever told that GA aircraft to Pi$$ off......
Right on Dude, I'm with You..
personnaly, I'm getting sick and tired to monitor 121.5 as good airmainship would dictate, to hear some idiot sending a " practice MAYDAY Call " every other minute...
In my days, When I practiced a forced landing, I didn't press the transmit button, and the only people who heard my simulated MAYDAY where...just me...., not the 70 commercial aeroplanes in the region...
whoever told that GA aircraft to Pi$$ off......
Right on Dude, I'm with You..
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Burgerbin
Do you ever fly in UK airspace?
If so, I suggest that you take some time to study the Air Law that applies there, since you obviously don't fully understand it at the moment and are risk of committing an offence with your present attitude.
Neither do you seem to understand how UK ATC and in particular the D&D cell operates.
Pretty worrying if you really are a commercial pilot operating in the UK.
Also, perhaps you might ask your ops department for a copy of the CAA study of the use of 121.5 in the UK and read their conclusions.
If you still do not like the system, then make representations to the CAA, but do not encourage unprofessional behaviour such as using bad language as you interrupt another pilot who is legitiamtely using the frequency with the support of UK ATC.
Do you ever fly in UK airspace?
If so, I suggest that you take some time to study the Air Law that applies there, since you obviously don't fully understand it at the moment and are risk of committing an offence with your present attitude.
Neither do you seem to understand how UK ATC and in particular the D&D cell operates.
Pretty worrying if you really are a commercial pilot operating in the UK.
Also, perhaps you might ask your ops department for a copy of the CAA study of the use of 121.5 in the UK and read their conclusions.
If you still do not like the system, then make representations to the CAA, but do not encourage unprofessional behaviour such as using bad language as you interrupt another pilot who is legitiamtely using the frequency with the support of UK ATC.
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Burgerbun. Please think again. As a professional, SWEARING LIKE THAT IS ABSOLUTELY OUT OF ORDER. Our SOP is also to listen to 121.5 whilst above FL100, but whilst in UK airspace I can't figure out for the life of my why I should. The purpose is obviously to prevent loss of contact and interception problems, which on a quiet day out over the Bay of Biscay, I DO listen out on .5
However the TMA area is far too busy to need to. SOPs are set for the LCD in many companies, so perhaps a little common sense would see it either turned right down or off in busy UK airspace. Concentrate on what you should be listening to, I say. Getting student pilots used to listening and communicating with D&D is vital. One day they may need their help and the top blokes and lasses in D&D are the last hope for some poor young soul so they should be confident in being able to speak to them.
To expect this frequency to be sterile just to pander to our following a frankly daft SOP yet not have to hear it is also daft. Back when airmanship existed, guarding 121.5 in the right circumstances was fine. Now it's use is being forced onto everyone to desperately stop the embarassment for companies when someone has finger trouble or whatever is not a good reason to force GA users to go away. It's their airspace and service too.
If you find 5 minutes of silence un-nerving like I do, and click or ask for a radio check from your main frequency, then no problem. Spending half a hour engrossed in a crossword or Suduko is. However being rude is just not on, no matter what this GA pilot was after. Name and shame here I say. Just the callsign will do fine.
However the TMA area is far too busy to need to. SOPs are set for the LCD in many companies, so perhaps a little common sense would see it either turned right down or off in busy UK airspace. Concentrate on what you should be listening to, I say. Getting student pilots used to listening and communicating with D&D is vital. One day they may need their help and the top blokes and lasses in D&D are the last hope for some poor young soul so they should be confident in being able to speak to them.
To expect this frequency to be sterile just to pander to our following a frankly daft SOP yet not have to hear it is also daft. Back when airmanship existed, guarding 121.5 in the right circumstances was fine. Now it's use is being forced onto everyone to desperately stop the embarassment for companies when someone has finger trouble or whatever is not a good reason to force GA users to go away. It's their airspace and service too.
If you find 5 minutes of silence un-nerving like I do, and click or ask for a radio check from your main frequency, then no problem. Spending half a hour engrossed in a crossword or Suduko is. However being rude is just not on, no matter what this GA pilot was after. Name and shame here I say. Just the callsign will do fine.
Tabs please !
A visit to Uxbridge to meet the chaps and chapesses in the cell should be mandatory for every pilot.
Keep up the excellent work
Keep up the excellent work
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Being a military Air Traffic Controller, one of my duties is to monitor 121.5
From my observation Practice PANs and Position fixes constitute less then 5% of the use of guard. About 85% of the time it is airline pilots inadvertantly transmitting on 121.5.
Sometimes it is funny to hear the reactions of fellow airline pilots when somebody does the brief for the passengers on guard in stead of on the PA
!
I gues about 10% of the time transmissions on guard are for real emergencies and loss of communications.
I am sure D&D has the correct statistics on the use and abuse of 121.5.
As it happens I am also a PPL instructor near Luton and with each of my students ONCE in their PPL training I request a position fix on guard. I think D&D are doing a wonderfull job and unexperienced (future airline) pilots temporary uncertain of position shouldn't be affraid to use this unique facility the UK has. Better one call on guard then to stack up ten liners in the hold for an airspace infringement!
From my observation Practice PANs and Position fixes constitute less then 5% of the use of guard. About 85% of the time it is airline pilots inadvertantly transmitting on 121.5.
Sometimes it is funny to hear the reactions of fellow airline pilots when somebody does the brief for the passengers on guard in stead of on the PA
!I gues about 10% of the time transmissions on guard are for real emergencies and loss of communications.
I am sure D&D has the correct statistics on the use and abuse of 121.5.
As it happens I am also a PPL instructor near Luton and with each of my students ONCE in their PPL training I request a position fix on guard. I think D&D are doing a wonderfull job and unexperienced (future airline) pilots temporary uncertain of position shouldn't be affraid to use this unique facility the UK has. Better one call on guard then to stack up ten liners in the hold for an airspace infringement!
Last edited by ERIK C; 22nd Feb 2007 at 18:38. Reason: Typo
Well,...
personnaly, I'm getting sick and tired to monitor 121.5 as good airmainship would dictate, to hear some idiot sending a " practice MAYDAY Call " every other minute...
In my days, When I practiced a forced landing, I didn't press the transmit button, and the only people who heard my simulated MAYDAY where...just me...., not the 70 commercial aeroplanes in the region...
whoever told that GA aircraft to Pi$$ off......
Right on Dude, I'm with You..
personnaly, I'm getting sick and tired to monitor 121.5 as good airmainship would dictate, to hear some idiot sending a " practice MAYDAY Call " every other minute...
In my days, When I practiced a forced landing, I didn't press the transmit button, and the only people who heard my simulated MAYDAY where...just me...., not the 70 commercial aeroplanes in the region...
whoever told that GA aircraft to Pi$$ off......
Right on Dude, I'm with You..
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I have always been led to believe that D&D will be happy to oblige if a GA aircraft calls requesting a practice pan (not a Maday as has been suggested), providing there isn't a real emergency in progress. And you can avoid stepping on such transmissions by observing basic RT etiquette;
Listen before you transmit
Make the initial call short. London Centre G-xxxx request practice pan
Heres what the CAA have to say:
http://http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/fod200608.pdf
Listen before you transmit
Make the initial call short. London Centre G-xxxx request practice pan
Heres what the CAA have to say:
http://http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/fod200608.pdf
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Since 911 the implications of an aircraft not responding to an ATC call has changed drastically. Inevitably an interception will ensue. Consequently 121.5 has become, as well as the distress frequency, a mandatory guard frequency, which ATC can call a slient aircraft on and alert them. Aircrew are now obliged to monitor 121.5 at all times, by virtue of SOP in the vast majority of airlines.
Time was, when practice PANs and talk on 121.5 caused little effect on others. Now it has the effect of interfering with ATC communications by possibly blocking reception of ATC calls on the main ATC frequency.
The UK is the only juristriction that continues to make 121.5 available for practice and non-essential calls. Like many others, I believe that this practice is now outdated and in need of review.
Use of foul language is not acceptable, but the frustration behind it is understandable.
Time was, when practice PANs and talk on 121.5 caused little effect on others. Now it has the effect of interfering with ATC communications by possibly blocking reception of ATC calls on the main ATC frequency.
The UK is the only juristriction that continues to make 121.5 available for practice and non-essential calls. Like many others, I believe that this practice is now outdated and in need of review.
Use of foul language is not acceptable, but the frustration behind it is understandable.
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The UK is the only juristriction that continues to make 121.5 available for practice and non-essential calls.
Could this be because the UK is the only country to have a dedicated D&D service? I say this not to denigrate other countries' emergency provisions; however, D&D in the UK is provided by controllers as their primary duty. This means two things as regards Practice Pan calls on 121.5:
1. The controllers NEED a certain number of these calls to remain current.
2. It's their frequency and they are quite capable of policing it themselves.
Over water I might make a quick call of "Guard" if I hear a PA or a call to Ops- because I have made that mistake myself and appreciated the warning. Over land? Leave it to the real experts!
Could this be because the UK is the only country to have a dedicated D&D service? I say this not to denigrate other countries' emergency provisions; however, D&D in the UK is provided by controllers as their primary duty. This means two things as regards Practice Pan calls on 121.5:
1. The controllers NEED a certain number of these calls to remain current.
2. It's their frequency and they are quite capable of policing it themselves.
Over water I might make a quick call of "Guard" if I hear a PA or a call to Ops- because I have made that mistake myself and appreciated the warning. Over land? Leave it to the real experts!
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Can't condone allowing frustation to boil over in the way this chap did. It does raise a valid concern though. .5 needs to be clear for poor souls in distress when they need it most or to prevent an unecessary encounter with missile carrying fighters.
The military provided a discrete UHF freq for practise pans after several incidents on 243 when actual emergencies were blocked out by practise pans. Perhaps its possable to do the same here ?
The military provided a discrete UHF freq for practise pans after several incidents on 243 when actual emergencies were blocked out by practise pans. Perhaps its possable to do the same here ?
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Carlton,
the situation arising is simply this: All over the world 121.5 is routinely being monitored as a guard frequency. In the vicinity of the UK, pilots monitoring 121.5 either end up missing ATC calls for them as a result of the amount of talk on it or either turn down the volume on box 2 and not actively monitor the frequency. Neither is desirable and the issue needs addressing.
Ashlings suggestion merits a lot of consideration.
the situation arising is simply this: All over the world 121.5 is routinely being monitored as a guard frequency. In the vicinity of the UK, pilots monitoring 121.5 either end up missing ATC calls for them as a result of the amount of talk on it or either turn down the volume on box 2 and not actively monitor the frequency. Neither is desirable and the issue needs addressing.
Ashlings suggestion merits a lot of consideration.
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...and sadly, because of 'frequency congestion', has been turned down at every step...
Now, how often does use of 121.5 by aircraft genuinely in distress prevent loss of life?
Now, how often does use of 121.5 by aircraft genuinely in distress prevent loss of life?