What is it with JetStar and Honolulu?
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What is it with JetStar and Honolulu?
Latest from Honolulu is the FAA now taking a closer look at good old JetStar.
Seems they took a wrong turn going to the gate and ended up on the inter-island terminal taxiway, L , I think it is.
Told by the controller to shut down and get towed out.
Not old JetStar they power up and get on out of there, all right!
Quite a few unhappy ground type crew I'm told.
Complaints from controllers about correct radio procedures was another complaint added to the mix .
Can't possibly be right can it?
I thought JetStar was a part of the Qantas Group!
Therefore if it's a part of the Qantas group it must be as good as Qantas ,right?
Seems they took a wrong turn going to the gate and ended up on the inter-island terminal taxiway, L , I think it is.
Told by the controller to shut down and get towed out.
Not old JetStar they power up and get on out of there, all right!
Quite a few unhappy ground type crew I'm told.
Complaints from controllers about correct radio procedures was another complaint added to the mix .
Can't possibly be right can it?
I thought JetStar was a part of the Qantas Group!
Therefore if it's a part of the Qantas group it must be as good as Qantas ,right?
1596
And while the Jetstar experiment continues, 1596 is the number of days assigned leave A330 pilots in Qantas have in our next bid period as these people fly our aircraft.
Heck, I think some of us may have even been to Honolulu just a few times before.
Heck, I think some of us may have even been to Honolulu just a few times before.
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Pita, I have jumpseated a number of times on jetstar into non controlled airports.In those instances Jetstar ops were fine.
Jetstar have a completely seperate recruiting stream and a much lower experience level. A First officer from turbo props general aviation might expect to make command within 3-5 years A320.
Jetstar is part of the qantas group and whilst they don't fly our red tails it is precisely incidents like this that cause mainline to defend our professionalism as pilots. Jetstar however will probably say that a turn around on a taxiway is better than parking in a golf course!
All of us mainline pilots are dirty at work being fed off to the low cost carrier where I believe the tech crew receive about 65% of our present pay rates.
Jetstar have a completely seperate recruiting stream and a much lower experience level. A First officer from turbo props general aviation might expect to make command within 3-5 years A320.
Jetstar is part of the qantas group and whilst they don't fly our red tails it is precisely incidents like this that cause mainline to defend our professionalism as pilots. Jetstar however will probably say that a turn around on a taxiway is better than parking in a golf course!
All of us mainline pilots are dirty at work being fed off to the low cost carrier where I believe the tech crew receive about 65% of our present pay rates.
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Jetstar have a completely seperate recruiting stream and a much lower experience level. A First officer from turbo props general aviation might expect to make command within 3-5 years A320.
Sounds more like a tired rather than inexperienced crew mistake to make.
Told by the controller to shut down and get towed out.
Not old JetStar they power up and get on out of there, all right!
Not old JetStar they power up and get on out of there, all right!
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Dear Craig,
You have obviously been duped by the Dixon/Joyce propaganda like a lot of other people if you believe that there is a 65% pay difference between Qantas and JetStar.
Poppycock !
Those figures of 65% your regurgitating might be close if you happen to compare Gross Mainline pay to Jetstar Min Guarantee pay.
If you were to compare min guarantee with min guarantee I'm led to believe the difference ends up being 10 or 15% ,if that.
Then if you were to compare say Qantas B737 min guarantee to JetStar gross pay ,guess what, you end up with a figure that has JetStar earning obscenely more than the Qantas 737 boys and girls.
Where Qantas pilots have the most concern, I believe, is with being forced to work under a JetStar type collective agreement. A group AWA if you like, that has very little in the way of protections for those who are forced to work under such an industrial instrument.
You may very well get your command in 3-5 years but that is only whilst JetStar is expanding, and so far, most of that expansion has been at Qantas Mainline expense. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Guess what, once JetStar stabilises it will be like most other airlines with an expectation of 10 or more years to command.
Then the other problem will be when the inevitable downturn occurs JetStar pilots will be turfed out with a few weeks pay as compensation to tide them over until the next expansion phase, look at section 34 of the JetStar collective agreement/AWA.
Therefore I hope you can begin to understand why Qantas pilots are upset.Here we are facing down the prospect of being forced onto a
collective agreement that we had no input into ,agreed to by a bunch of industrial amateurs who couldn't see past their own promotion.That my friend is why JetStar is seen by Qantas pilots as usurpers,
creators of a future that Qantas pilots have not been allowed to influence.
You have obviously been duped by the Dixon/Joyce propaganda like a lot of other people if you believe that there is a 65% pay difference between Qantas and JetStar.
Poppycock !
Those figures of 65% your regurgitating might be close if you happen to compare Gross Mainline pay to Jetstar Min Guarantee pay.
If you were to compare min guarantee with min guarantee I'm led to believe the difference ends up being 10 or 15% ,if that.
Then if you were to compare say Qantas B737 min guarantee to JetStar gross pay ,guess what, you end up with a figure that has JetStar earning obscenely more than the Qantas 737 boys and girls.
Where Qantas pilots have the most concern, I believe, is with being forced to work under a JetStar type collective agreement. A group AWA if you like, that has very little in the way of protections for those who are forced to work under such an industrial instrument.
You may very well get your command in 3-5 years but that is only whilst JetStar is expanding, and so far, most of that expansion has been at Qantas Mainline expense. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Guess what, once JetStar stabilises it will be like most other airlines with an expectation of 10 or more years to command.
Then the other problem will be when the inevitable downturn occurs JetStar pilots will be turfed out with a few weeks pay as compensation to tide them over until the next expansion phase, look at section 34 of the JetStar collective agreement/AWA.
Therefore I hope you can begin to understand why Qantas pilots are upset.Here we are facing down the prospect of being forced onto a
collective agreement that we had no input into ,agreed to by a bunch of industrial amateurs who couldn't see past their own promotion.That my friend is why JetStar is seen by Qantas pilots as usurpers,
creators of a future that Qantas pilots have not been allowed to influence.
Jetstar have a completely separate recruiting stream and a much lower experience level.
QF minimums are at 500 hours total while Jetstar's are around several thousand.
Jetstar Australia doesn't have cadets.
haughtney1, whats the difference between 'lack of experience' and 'inexperience'?
neville_nobody, yes they do have Cadets. There were a couple 'put on' back in the late nineties they are probably Captains by now and I can confirm another from AN/KD, I'm sure there are more.
neville_nobody, yes they do have Cadets. There were a couple 'put on' back in the late nineties they are probably Captains by now and I can confirm another from AN/KD, I'm sure there are more.
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Hey 'neville nobody',
They might get put through the selection process now, but what about the first wave - all those "impulse" pilots who made it in to kick start the experiment ???
They might get put through the selection process now, but what about the first wave - all those "impulse" pilots who made it in to kick start the experiment ???
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Max, of course I can understand why QF pilots are unhappy, I am one!! The estimate of around 65% was based on anecdotally of what a 737 captain might gross per annum versus what a Jetstar A320 Captain might earn. It's an estimate mate but it is certainly less money with less conditions and for more hours at work than mainline pilots enjoy. I can't quote dixon on anything because unless he issues a flight standing order for a tech matter I refuse to read any of his pubs. I was at the special general meeting at the novotel in sydney some years ago ( commuter and flew down on my own time to attend) where jetstar was described as being compartmentalised so that at the end of the lease arrangement of the 717s it could be closed down. The additional leasing of 717s at that time was explained as necessary to have a critical number of whatever types and I cannot quote the number. Qf 18 years
Max Auto brake
My recollection is that AIPA wouldn't have a bar of the "little boys" be they , Eastern, Sunnies, Impulse or whatever.
Had AIPA opened their eyes and embraced all those involved, things may very well have been different. From their very inception of AIPA with Westwood and Cant, it has had it's head up it's arse and not heard the noises from outside.
In no way do I agree with what Darth is doing to you guy's, but to a large degree you are reaping the crop you sowed some time ago.
Australian Aviation RIP
Maui
creators of a future that Qantas pilots have not been allowed to influence
Had AIPA opened their eyes and embraced all those involved, things may very well have been different. From their very inception of AIPA with Westwood and Cant, it has had it's head up it's arse and not heard the noises from outside.
In no way do I agree with what Darth is doing to you guy's, but to a large degree you are reaping the crop you sowed some time ago.
Australian Aviation RIP
Maui
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Maui,
Largely fiction and over emphasised.
This is now, with different heads in AIPA.
Whatever the management of a union it is the will of the pilots that is the most important thing.
Most QF pilots simply want our pay/conditions/progression protected.
The company will not discuss any joining of the crews so as to divide and conquer, meanwhile QF crews[and I pesume Jetstar ones] are heading overseas to greener pastures.
Supply and demand will work in the end, even if most of us end up working for overseas carriers!
Largely fiction and over emphasised.
This is now, with different heads in AIPA.
Whatever the management of a union it is the will of the pilots that is the most important thing.
Most QF pilots simply want our pay/conditions/progression protected.
The company will not discuss any joining of the crews so as to divide and conquer, meanwhile QF crews[and I pesume Jetstar ones] are heading overseas to greener pastures.
Supply and demand will work in the end, even if most of us end up working for overseas carriers!
Tank to engine
What's the fiction.
That you guy's told Eastern/Sunnies/Impulse to get knicked when they wanted to come under your umberella.
Or perhaps you think it's fiction that Westwood and Cant lead you on a merry dance for their own ends.
Or perhaps it's a fiction that Darth is sticking it up you.
I agree this is now, and all that happened a long time ago, but is most surely the reason you face your problems now. Of course the company will not entertain any joining of the pilot groups NOW, but I'll bet my marbles that you could have done it when it was first floated.
I sincerely wish you all the best, but IMHO you were screwed a long time ago by your leadership, and the chickens are now coming home to roost.
Maui
What's the fiction.
That you guy's told Eastern/Sunnies/Impulse to get knicked when they wanted to come under your umberella.
Or perhaps you think it's fiction that Westwood and Cant lead you on a merry dance for their own ends.
Or perhaps it's a fiction that Darth is sticking it up you.
I agree this is now, and all that happened a long time ago, but is most surely the reason you face your problems now. Of course the company will not entertain any joining of the pilot groups NOW, but I'll bet my marbles that you could have done it when it was first floated.
I sincerely wish you all the best, but IMHO you were screwed a long time ago by your leadership, and the chickens are now coming home to roost.
Maui
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Maui.
I hear you and a lot of qantas pilots are all for integration.
I asked some questions reference your aspersions.
Look at the history of AIPA.
They broke away from the AFAP back in the early '80's because Qantas pilots of the time felt they were getting the raw prawn representationally from the AFAP. See what's happening to the Virgin guys and gals now, to give yourself an idea.
The AIPA constitution as a result reflected this genesis.
It's taken , I believe a generation to change some of this dogmatic ideology.
A change to the AIPA constitution has occured to now allow "outsiders" in.
Don't blame the son for the fathers crimes please.
I hear you and a lot of qantas pilots are all for integration.
I asked some questions reference your aspersions.
Look at the history of AIPA.
They broke away from the AFAP back in the early '80's because Qantas pilots of the time felt they were getting the raw prawn representationally from the AFAP. See what's happening to the Virgin guys and gals now, to give yourself an idea.
The AIPA constitution as a result reflected this genesis.
It's taken , I believe a generation to change some of this dogmatic ideology.
A change to the AIPA constitution has occured to now allow "outsiders" in.
Don't blame the son for the fathers crimes please.
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Maui
Let us not forget the other factors:
- governments who don't care about the industry or its people
- economic rationalists who don't understand aviation market forces/patterns or history
- reworked federal agencies who neither know nor care
- airport operators who forget, like the railways in the UK, that streams feed rivers and that destroying regional aviation will eventually bite everyone
- and then there are the wonderful track records of private equity...
- big salaries for some (ceos) but not for others - another type of equity, not
- lack of a decent airline consumer movement in Oz doesn't help either
- lack of Chapter 11 in OZ - a certain treasurer has promised it for a decade but no sign in sight so smaller operators die under administration because there is no option and the process of administration is about creditors, not about saving/rebuilding businesses (remember Ansett - the administrators will dine out on it for years yet but that doesn't bring back former staff, jobs or...)
The list goes on...
Let us not forget the other factors:
- governments who don't care about the industry or its people
- economic rationalists who don't understand aviation market forces/patterns or history
- reworked federal agencies who neither know nor care
- airport operators who forget, like the railways in the UK, that streams feed rivers and that destroying regional aviation will eventually bite everyone
- and then there are the wonderful track records of private equity...
- big salaries for some (ceos) but not for others - another type of equity, not
- lack of a decent airline consumer movement in Oz doesn't help either
- lack of Chapter 11 in OZ - a certain treasurer has promised it for a decade but no sign in sight so smaller operators die under administration because there is no option and the process of administration is about creditors, not about saving/rebuilding businesses (remember Ansett - the administrators will dine out on it for years yet but that doesn't bring back former staff, jobs or...)
The list goes on...
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Jetstar are do all the same Pysch and Skills that everyone in Mainline do.
QF minimums are at 500 hours total while Jetstar's are around several thousand.
Jetstar Australia doesn't have cadets.
Nev, Mate,
They might do the same pysch(sic) test but which score goes where?
Could you also please explain the differences in the training content between the two pilot groups as well, I'm sure the travelling public would be thrilled to learn just how thoroughly tried and tested the JetStar pilots are in comparison to the Qantas pilots, after all JetStar is part of the Qantas group ,is it not ? Therefore by association ,it must be the same as Qantas. After all how many people buying Qantas tickets ,expecting a Qantas Aeroplane flown by Qantas pilots actually now end up on JetStar?
Would some of these people actually get on board a JetStar aircraft if they knew the differences in the training curriculum?
One can only guess!
QF minimums are at 500 hours total while Jetstar's are around several thousand.
Jetstar Australia doesn't have cadets.
Nev, Mate,
They might do the same pysch(sic) test but which score goes where?
Could you also please explain the differences in the training content between the two pilot groups as well, I'm sure the travelling public would be thrilled to learn just how thoroughly tried and tested the JetStar pilots are in comparison to the Qantas pilots, after all JetStar is part of the Qantas group ,is it not ? Therefore by association ,it must be the same as Qantas. After all how many people buying Qantas tickets ,expecting a Qantas Aeroplane flown by Qantas pilots actually now end up on JetStar?
Would some of these people actually get on board a JetStar aircraft if they knew the differences in the training curriculum?
One can only guess!
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haughtney1, whats the difference between 'lack of experience' and 'inexperience'?
I said this IMHO that this was not a mistake due to "inexperience" (taking the wrong taxiway) but more likely a tired crew making a mistake(we've all been there)
I made no comment as to the decision (flawed or otherwise) to disregard the instructions to shut down, and turn around
