US bid to enable arming of US pilots on all flights
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I so love the scenario.
Door bell rings.
F/O clambers out of seat, pulls his gun, takes up famous High Noon crouch.
Door opens.
F/O doesn't recognise the stew standing in the doorway (newbie....).
"Put 'em up and freeze !!!!"
Stew "puts 'em up"... in the process tossing the tray with hot soup and hot lunch in his face.
Gun goes off. Bullet richochets and leaves centre stage, via the ECAM screen.
Stew puts her hands down, surveys the pityful hulk on the floor clutching his scalded nether regions, smiles, then turns round, slamming the door behind her.
Door bell rings.
F/O clambers out of seat, pulls his gun, takes up famous High Noon crouch.
Door opens.
F/O doesn't recognise the stew standing in the doorway (newbie....).
"Put 'em up and freeze !!!!"
Stew "puts 'em up"... in the process tossing the tray with hot soup and hot lunch in his face.
Gun goes off. Bullet richochets and leaves centre stage, via the ECAM screen.
Stew puts her hands down, surveys the pityful hulk on the floor clutching his scalded nether regions, smiles, then turns round, slamming the door behind her.
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From a UK-centric perspective, how would it work with a pilot arriving with a handgun, would he have to check it in with security and leave it at the airport until his outbound flight, given the restrictions on handguns in the UK?
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Watch this space
I suppose if this was ever proposed in the UK, I would reluctantly agree. If a weapon is to be discharged onboard my aircraft, I want to know what it’s fired at and when. That makes me the firer.
Still, as you all say. How are we going to get a gun on board when Tony Blair won’t even let me take my shampoo?
Air security has descended into farce. I’m more concerned with the security than the threat.
Still, as you all say. How are we going to get a gun on board when Tony Blair won’t even let me take my shampoo?
Air security has descended into farce. I’m more concerned with the security than the threat.
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Who's going to train all these pilots in what is effectively close quarter battle situations??
Being able to fly an A/C does not qualify someone to safely use a gun in confined spaces!!
Being able to fly an A/C does not qualify someone to safely use a gun in confined spaces!!
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Let's just say that having to consider the possibility of a gun in the cockpit or even 2 guns in the cockpit compounds your problem of taking over the airplane.
Second, doesn't make any difference if they make it in the cockpit.. if they try, you're going to have a mess on your hands.
Did it when I was flying and have to say the safest I felt was one flight where we had about 28 guns on the airplane between the ones in the cockpit and the ones in the cabin being carried by FBI, Marshals and other Law Enforcement officers.
I thought the poor bastards that rush this cockpit is going to be toast.. and quick.
Second, doesn't make any difference if they make it in the cockpit.. if they try, you're going to have a mess on your hands.
Did it when I was flying and have to say the safest I felt was one flight where we had about 28 guns on the airplane between the ones in the cockpit and the ones in the cabin being carried by FBI, Marshals and other Law Enforcement officers.
I thought the poor bastards that rush this cockpit is going to be toast.. and quick.
Trash du Blanc
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Looking at the above it seems the obvious target is a freighter.
And if the TSA is so incompetent, why should pilots trust them to guarantee their safety?
Guns are a deterrent, that's all. Down 'round where I live, folks don't lock the doors at night. An armed society is a polite society.
If you don't need 'em, good for you. I'd love to live like that one day. But for now, I'd just as soon have a fighting chance - and I've met the three pilots here at my company that took advantage of their fighting chance. If just one of them had had a pistol, maybe they wouldn't all be on medical leave today....
(And no, their attacker would not have had a gun - he definitely wouldn't have passed the psych screening.)
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18-Wheeler
Don’t be so dismissive. It seems to me that we have the germ of a good idea here!
I presume the captain will be given a 9mm, or equivalent. IMHO the FO should be issued with a similar weapon, perhaps a high-velocity 38 if she’s a lady. That would be excellent for CRM and help to solve the problem that FOs have always had with the small minority of boorish captains. Personally, I would favour arming the flight deck with one of those dinky little Uzis like the one that the nice sales assistant in the sporting goods emporium in Enumclaw, WA , tried to sell my eleven year old a few years back.
What better way of pre-empting SLF bad behaviour by also arming the cabin crew? Again 45s for the men and high velocity 38s for the girls (45s if they are man enough to handle them!)? Any SLF acting suspiciously and wham, bang! That would teach them, without the need to bother the flight deck! It might also have the spin-off that SLF would be polite to the cabin attendants – to paraphrase Huck, SLF are polite to armed crew.
How about trying this new scheme out as a pilot at some Lo Co in the States where crew would be able to easily buy their own weapons, thus saving the cost to the operators?
Let’s be creative!
Stoic
I presume the captain will be given a 9mm, or equivalent. IMHO the FO should be issued with a similar weapon, perhaps a high-velocity 38 if she’s a lady. That would be excellent for CRM and help to solve the problem that FOs have always had with the small minority of boorish captains. Personally, I would favour arming the flight deck with one of those dinky little Uzis like the one that the nice sales assistant in the sporting goods emporium in Enumclaw, WA , tried to sell my eleven year old a few years back.
What better way of pre-empting SLF bad behaviour by also arming the cabin crew? Again 45s for the men and high velocity 38s for the girls (45s if they are man enough to handle them!)? Any SLF acting suspiciously and wham, bang! That would teach them, without the need to bother the flight deck! It might also have the spin-off that SLF would be polite to the cabin attendants – to paraphrase Huck, SLF are polite to armed crew.
How about trying this new scheme out as a pilot at some Lo Co in the States where crew would be able to easily buy their own weapons, thus saving the cost to the operators?
Let’s be creative!
Stoic
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Having been trained in the use of handguns. I have no fundamental objection to guns. In a sense it's a good idea. If all pilots in the US are carrying guns. Then any potential hijackers know exactly what to expect. However I cannot see how it could be done on international flights. Some countries might agree, most wouldn't or would put restrictions on it. In a country like Britain where a big deal is made about even the police being armed. I hardly think it's likely that US airline pilots would be allowed to stroll around Heathrow carrying a concealed weapon.
Not to mention going to the hotel and checking it into the safe
Besides as has been said many times before, the hijack an airliner and fly it into a building scenario is pretty much of a non runner these days. The terrorists have moved on. I'm sure something equally diabolic is being plotted somewhere. The gun thing is a red herring frankly.
On a separate but related point. Those US pilots carrying guns now. Are all your nailclippers, shampoo, toothpaste and sharpened pencils confiscated at security while your gun is just given a cursory glance? How does that work?
Not to mention going to the hotel and checking it into the safe Besides as has been said many times before, the hijack an airliner and fly it into a building scenario is pretty much of a non runner these days. The terrorists have moved on. I'm sure something equally diabolic is being plotted somewhere. The gun thing is a red herring frankly.
On a separate but related point. Those US pilots carrying guns now. Are all your nailclippers, shampoo, toothpaste and sharpened pencils confiscated at security while your gun is just given a cursory glance? How does that work?
Cool as a moosp
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Corsair, you got it in ONE there.
A gun in the right hands is good protection against an enemy. A toe nail clipper in the right hands is prohibited.
I have just received from my union the new regulations on "security" departing LHR. (Before my company, for what it is worth...) I am not allowed all the things that you guys in the States have had prohibited for some weeks now. So like a sheepish passenger, who does not have ICAO security clearance, I have to ensure that all liquids are in 100 ml packages, (NOT for heavens sake, a 200ml container half empty!!) and all the other inane offensive rigmarole with which you are familiar, that these muppets have invented.
Meanwhile, out of the security locker on the aircraft, I take my handgun, L&L, and go about my job as a pilot.
Where were the Airline managers when this was being decided? Where were the Unions? Are our CEO's so impotent that they cannot stand up to the idiots in government and show them how the law has become an ass? Or is that the plan of the CEOs, to denigrate our profession?
A gun in the right hands is good protection against an enemy. A toe nail clipper in the right hands is prohibited.
I have just received from my union the new regulations on "security" departing LHR. (Before my company, for what it is worth...) I am not allowed all the things that you guys in the States have had prohibited for some weeks now. So like a sheepish passenger, who does not have ICAO security clearance, I have to ensure that all liquids are in 100 ml packages, (NOT for heavens sake, a 200ml container half empty!!) and all the other inane offensive rigmarole with which you are familiar, that these muppets have invented.
Meanwhile, out of the security locker on the aircraft, I take my handgun, L&L, and go about my job as a pilot.
Where were the Airline managers when this was being decided? Where were the Unions? Are our CEO's so impotent that they cannot stand up to the idiots in government and show them how the law has become an ass? Or is that the plan of the CEOs, to denigrate our profession?
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IMHO this is a riduculous scenario to be considering. From the majority of responses, I would guess they come from the other side of the Atlantic, where there is a gun culture and one might even say an exuberant approach to gun ownership.
I for one have no interest in being issued with a firearm, let alone trained in it's use, together with the specialist training required to be able to handle and use it in a responsible way. The police have difficulty finding sufficient officers to join armed units as the repercussions of using a firearm are severe if you get it wrong. The second issue is, are you really prepared to use it? Having lived in a place where there is almost as much gun ownership as the US I was often amazed by peoples response to the question, "Are you really prepared to kill someone?" Most answered that they did not want to kill anybody, just to wave the weapon around to frighten them off! Bottom line, if you are going to show a weapon you must realise that the baddies are going to believe that you intend to use it and take retalitory action.
The upshot of having firearms on the flightdeck will be that any attempted entry / hijack type situation will be carried out in the knowledge that you are armed. This will mean that there will probably be no meaningful dialogue, just shoot or be shot!
The focus should be on making sure that no-one gets on an aircraft with a firearm.
I for one have no interest in being issued with a firearm, let alone trained in it's use, together with the specialist training required to be able to handle and use it in a responsible way. The police have difficulty finding sufficient officers to join armed units as the repercussions of using a firearm are severe if you get it wrong. The second issue is, are you really prepared to use it? Having lived in a place where there is almost as much gun ownership as the US I was often amazed by peoples response to the question, "Are you really prepared to kill someone?" Most answered that they did not want to kill anybody, just to wave the weapon around to frighten them off! Bottom line, if you are going to show a weapon you must realise that the baddies are going to believe that you intend to use it and take retalitory action.
The upshot of having firearms on the flightdeck will be that any attempted entry / hijack type situation will be carried out in the knowledge that you are armed. This will mean that there will probably be no meaningful dialogue, just shoot or be shot!
The focus should be on making sure that no-one gets on an aircraft with a firearm.
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wheelbarrow
wileydogs attitude in post number 28 sums it all up for me.
Very condescending and assuming.
Give some people a little knowledge and they think they know everything - just the type of person you do not want holding a gun IMHO
wileydogs attitude in post number 28 sums it all up for me.
Very condescending and assuming.
Give some people a little knowledge and they think they know everything - just the type of person you do not want holding a gun IMHO
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I don't know about an exhuberance for owning guns but I do know that there are a lot of guns in the US. It is, as you note, part of the culture. The problem is that a lot of bad people have little inhibition about using them on people who can not defend themselves.
And yes, if someone is trying to enter the cockpit, there will be NO discussion. Once the door is breached, it is time to 'drain 'em and drain 'em as quickly as possible'.
And yes, *one* point of focus should be on keeping the threat off the airplane but that does not exempt putting a second line of defense in place. As you have noted about culture, many Americans are not going to put up with the security exercises to really go after the bad boys.
Having an armed pilot is a redundancy for defense.
One other point. There seems to be an impression that there are a lot of cowboys in the program. Let's just say the program is set up so the cowboys never get to ride the range. Everyone is watched pretty closely before, during and after initial training. It is not a one-shot deal (no pun intended).
And yes, if someone is trying to enter the cockpit, there will be NO discussion. Once the door is breached, it is time to 'drain 'em and drain 'em as quickly as possible'.
And yes, *one* point of focus should be on keeping the threat off the airplane but that does not exempt putting a second line of defense in place. As you have noted about culture, many Americans are not going to put up with the security exercises to really go after the bad boys.
Having an armed pilot is a redundancy for defense.
One other point. There seems to be an impression that there are a lot of cowboys in the program. Let's just say the program is set up so the cowboys never get to ride the range. Everyone is watched pretty closely before, during and after initial training. It is not a one-shot deal (no pun intended).
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If it was taken as condescending, my apology. But many of the posts are simply inaccurate and display a lack of knowledge of the program. It is sort of like the party I attended years ago and some of the pilot were talking about the Shuttle. Some were talking about the re-entry and were sure about their information. One fellow I had yet to meet simply said, "That is not correct." When a few argued that they *knew* what they were talking about and what kind of experience did he have to rebut them, he simply said that he had flown the Shuttle a few times. And he had...
I did the program. I am now retired and no longer carry but I was very impressed with the dedication of those teaching and those attending. Everyone understood this was not some a game of airplane cops and robbers. Goofballs, hotdogs, cowboys and rogues intrigued with impressing people were gone by the end of class.
Do you have first hand knowledge of the program?
I did the program. I am now retired and no longer carry but I was very impressed with the dedication of those teaching and those attending. Everyone understood this was not some a game of airplane cops and robbers. Goofballs, hotdogs, cowboys and rogues intrigued with impressing people were gone by the end of class.
Do you have first hand knowledge of the program?
Last edited by wileydog3; 11th Feb 2007 at 14:13.
Not quite, so please enlighten me!
Are the guns used in your program of foolproof design, like it-never-shoots-frendlies kind? Are they incapable of breaching the hull or cockpit window pane, yet capable of stopping the hijackers dead? Do their manufacturers guarantee that they´ll never fire by accident, even with bullet in the barrel and safety lock off?
No?
Why discussing the program then?
So guy enters the cockpit wielding axe or knife or uzi or whatever and you are fully confident that you´ll have the time to take the gun from the holster, aim and shoot him dead because you´re well trained? Or youßll keep your gun handy and loaded all time, just in case? C´mon, even movie heros are not that dumb.
Ah, no! You don´t indent to use it all, it´s only detterent!
It´s mighty dangerous detterent, my friends. For the users, that is, not the one that have to be dettered.
Nice post about this situation from ChristianJ, earlier on the page.
Are the guns used in your program of foolproof design, like it-never-shoots-frendlies kind? Are they incapable of breaching the hull or cockpit window pane, yet capable of stopping the hijackers dead? Do their manufacturers guarantee that they´ll never fire by accident, even with bullet in the barrel and safety lock off?
No?
Why discussing the program then?
So guy enters the cockpit wielding axe or knife or uzi or whatever and you are fully confident that you´ll have the time to take the gun from the holster, aim and shoot him dead because you´re well trained? Or youßll keep your gun handy and loaded all time, just in case? C´mon, even movie heros are not that dumb.
Ah, no! You don´t indent to use it all, it´s only detterent!
It´s mighty dangerous detterent, my friends. For the users, that is, not the one that have to be dettered.
And yes, if someone is trying to enter the cockpit, there will be NO discussion.
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It's not my job to 'enlighten' anyone but as I said, some of the comments about the program show a distinct lack of knowledge about the program. And comments about the weapon or preparation to combat the cockpit breach serves no purpose.
And everyone I know who had been through a rigorous weapons program (military, police, etc) knows you never bring a weapon out of the holster with any other intent except to 'neutralize the threat'. It is not a show of force. It is not meant to intimidate.
And everyone I know who had been through a rigorous weapons program (military, police, etc) knows you never bring a weapon out of the holster with any other intent except to 'neutralize the threat'. It is not a show of force. It is not meant to intimidate.
Last edited by wileydog3; 11th Feb 2007 at 14:34.