Airline pilots 'lack skills to handle emergencies'
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I think The problem here is an airplane crashes and it's always the pilot's fault because that's the best scape goat. Years later it transpires that there was a chain of events that was out of the pilot's control, but after such a long while the media let alone the public could care less.
We need more exposure like in the book "Crisis on the flight deck" in the media, where the fit hits the shan and it turns out ok because of pilot skill, but if no-ones hurt then it's not news is it nowdays.
Take the BA flight to Kenya with the crazy causing loss of control. Lots said about the crazy and how he got into the cockpit, and the unusual attitude the aircraft went into but not much said about what type of flying skill was required to recover. Now if it had been a smoking hole in the ground I would put money on the fact that the pilots will take part of the blame. We need a level playing field thats all.
We need more exposure like in the book "Crisis on the flight deck" in the media, where the fit hits the shan and it turns out ok because of pilot skill, but if no-ones hurt then it's not news is it nowdays.
Take the BA flight to Kenya with the crazy causing loss of control. Lots said about the crazy and how he got into the cockpit, and the unusual attitude the aircraft went into but not much said about what type of flying skill was required to recover. Now if it had been a smoking hole in the ground I would put money on the fact that the pilots will take part of the blame. We need a level playing field thats all.
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Mallard when the opportunity presents itself and the workload is low you should ecourage manual flight in the aircraft especially mordern types, there is much to be gained. I say this because you post indicates you do not agree.
Rongotai very intresting, do you think idealy avionic development should slow a little.
Best rgds
Rongotai very intresting, do you think idealy avionic development should slow a little.
Best rgds
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1. Don't shoot the messenger ie the Flight correspondent.
2. Apart from less manual skills an emergency can come as a shock(!) to pilots who have never had one. The systems are so reliable that failures are unusual.
3. Simulators do not induce panic .
4. Old style military aviators experienced an emergency virtually every trip.
5. How do we train new pilots for these eventualities?
2. Apart from less manual skills an emergency can come as a shock(!) to pilots who have never had one. The systems are so reliable that failures are unusual.
3. Simulators do not induce panic .
4. Old style military aviators experienced an emergency virtually every trip.
5. How do we train new pilots for these eventualities?
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Mmm, I ( situation permitting) never use the automatics below 10,000' on departure and disengage early on arrival. I am not the only one that does this by any means in the company I work for.
Why? To keep the flying skills alive for the base checks, I know it's crazy, I actuly use the real A/C to practise for the sim.
It is easy to get lazy and I found my standards were slipping and I was working harder than I needed to in the sim. Using the above regime, problem solved. IMO flying S&L is a no brainer and does not improve handling.
I find my life a whole lot easier now I just polish the skills, rarther than try to relearn every six months.
Edited coz the standards slipped again
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]
Why? To keep the flying skills alive for the base checks, I know it's crazy, I actuly use the real A/C to practise for the sim.
It is easy to get lazy and I found my standards were slipping and I was working harder than I needed to in the sim. Using the above regime, problem solved. IMO flying S&L is a no brainer and does not improve handling.
I find my life a whole lot easier now I just polish the skills, rarther than try to relearn every six months.
Edited coz the standards slipped again
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]
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When I had the temerity to suggest in a thread a couple of weeks back that modern airline pilots were largely systems monitors with little in the way of hands-on flying, it went down like a pork sausage at a Bar Mitzvah.
However, the reality is that not only is that the case, but advances in technology mean that even the physical presence of pilots on the flight deck in future aircraft is not assured - with both Airbus and Boeing having produced design concepts for aircraft that would be ground and/or fully computer controlled.
Before anyone says "that can't happen"; just think ... what happened to navigators, radio operators and even flight engineers? From a purely personal perspective, I don't think that this 'progress' is a good idea at all (as someone who prefers three to two person flight decks, preferrably with analogue instrumentation and more-or-less direct control linkages rather than this die-by-wire stuff) - but the bean-counters have the final say in these matters.
Whether we admit it publicly or not, at least let's be honest with ourselves. DL is right in much of what he says - CRM remains a major problem with many, many airlines (especially those in developing nations and where the culture does not permit the questioning of command decisions - Gulf Air and Singapore Airlines are two cases that immediately come to mind); and as we all know, when the time comes for you to earn your lifetime's salary in the space of a minute or two, the chances are it will not be something you've practiced on the sim - examples being the Gimli Glider and Sioux City. However, through sheer experience coupled with first rate flying skills, the crews of those aircraft got them down and saved the lives of many passengers. It's highly questionable that had younger pilots - who have not had the analogue 'old fashioned' flying experience - been in command, that the results would have been the same; and certainly there's no doubt that the level (and type) of skills required to fly an A320 are very different to those required to fly a 707. Ability to type at 80wpm isn't a necessity with the 707 for starters!!
gumbi - the L10 is a perfect example of an aircraft that you can fly from A to B at the press of a button or three!
However, the reality is that not only is that the case, but advances in technology mean that even the physical presence of pilots on the flight deck in future aircraft is not assured - with both Airbus and Boeing having produced design concepts for aircraft that would be ground and/or fully computer controlled.
Before anyone says "that can't happen"; just think ... what happened to navigators, radio operators and even flight engineers? From a purely personal perspective, I don't think that this 'progress' is a good idea at all (as someone who prefers three to two person flight decks, preferrably with analogue instrumentation and more-or-less direct control linkages rather than this die-by-wire stuff)
- but the bean-counters have the final say in these matters. Whether we admit it publicly or not, at least let's be honest with ourselves. DL is right in much of what he says - CRM remains a major problem with many, many airlines (especially those in developing nations and where the culture does not permit the questioning of command decisions - Gulf Air and Singapore Airlines are two cases that immediately come to mind); and as we all know, when the time comes for you to earn your lifetime's salary in the space of a minute or two, the chances are it will not be something you've practiced on the sim - examples being the Gimli Glider and Sioux City. However, through sheer experience coupled with first rate flying skills, the crews of those aircraft got them down and saved the lives of many passengers. It's highly questionable that had younger pilots - who have not had the analogue 'old fashioned' flying experience - been in command, that the results would have been the same; and certainly there's no doubt that the level (and type) of skills required to fly an A320 are very different to those required to fly a 707. Ability to type at 80wpm isn't a necessity with the 707 for starters!!
gumbi - the L10 is a perfect example of an aircraft that you can fly from A to B at the press of a button or three!
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There's another angle to this whole 'human out of the loop' debate. What about air traffic control? Now there's a sector which is becoming increasingly automated and the same concern applies -- notwithstanding the excellent job which our air traffic control colleagues do today.
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Flying a complicated SID out of a London TMA airport manually loads up the non-handling pilot to the limit. Likewise with a STAR, particularly at busy times. Even the offer of a cup of tea can cause a loss of concentration for a few seconds when the radio calls aree coming thick and fast. Not the time to practise manual flying skills. It's just a video game to the handling pilot, keeping the box over the cross hairs while the other guy's working like a one legged man in an ar$e kicking contest.
As for the benefits of taking the autopilot out in the cruise and playing the same but less challenging and more tedious video game. What exactly am I supposed to gain from that?
Simulators aren't perfect but they are all we've got for practising emergencies. Hand flying the aircraft has it's time and place at quiet times but please please not in the cruise.
Isn't it funny how the media (and us it would seem) concentrate on when it went wrong, but no one ever thinks about the millions of lives saved every year when airline pilot's got it right during emergencies.
As for the benefits of taking the autopilot out in the cruise and playing the same but less challenging and more tedious video game. What exactly am I supposed to gain from that?
Simulators aren't perfect but they are all we've got for practising emergencies. Hand flying the aircraft has it's time and place at quiet times but please please not in the cruise.
Isn't it funny how the media (and us it would seem) concentrate on when it went wrong, but no one ever thinks about the millions of lives saved every year when airline pilot's got it right during emergencies.
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Hand flying, a topic on which many disagree , especially the younger guys as they are so fond of the FMC doing all the work. I would advocate that airline flight ops management insist that, at reasonable times, hand flying is to be done, to help along some of the junior guys who have not had the the oppontunity in the more automated machines. Departures and arrivals hand flown accurately are quite a satisfying exercise. It would appear however that many do not agree. Ok, so it loads up the NFP to some extent. Good practice for him/her as well.
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Company I flew for years ago had 737-300's. Short of crews for a few weeks we had to use two captains per trip doing leg for leg.
Arriving into average airport one cloudy day (base 800 ft viz 10Kms), and 8000 ft runway at sea level, I suggested to captain in left seat he carry out manual raw data ILS. He politely declined, citing preference for full automatics and that was because (he said) he was so rusty on manual flying that he did not want to embarrass himself and maybe upset the passengers.
At least he was truthful, but the real reason I suspect, was that he had lost confidence in how to fly. And that from a 12,000 hour 737 captain. The situation must be quite alarming when low hour graduates go directly into RH seat but with superb automatics skills. Says a lot for the reliability of glass cockpit electronics.
Arriving into average airport one cloudy day (base 800 ft viz 10Kms), and 8000 ft runway at sea level, I suggested to captain in left seat he carry out manual raw data ILS. He politely declined, citing preference for full automatics and that was because (he said) he was so rusty on manual flying that he did not want to embarrass himself and maybe upset the passengers.
At least he was truthful, but the real reason I suspect, was that he had lost confidence in how to fly. And that from a 12,000 hour 737 captain. The situation must be quite alarming when low hour graduates go directly into RH seat but with superb automatics skills. Says a lot for the reliability of glass cockpit electronics.
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Maybe, Mr. Learmount read the book on' How to fly the big jets?'And thought their was not much more to it!
Maybe he should try long-haul for a couple months and see how he feel's then!
Maybe he should try long-haul for a couple months and see how he feel's then!
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Ball Heck. Yes inappropriate manual flying will load up the PNF.
However I find that I can respond to tricky SID's out of london airports with a far greater accuacy than the AFDS. I even use...shock horror FLT level change at 1000' when a low level Alt Cap is a prospect. Why? because then, even if I catch the AFDS as the modes are just changing, I still know exactly what modes it's going to annunciate and you don't get a mad scrabble trying to sort out the AFDS.
Half the SID violations in our Company were due to us trying to force the AFDS to fly and respond smoothly to a flight regime that it could not handle. SID violations are now virtually none existent becuase we reverted to the "old" way of doing things, where required.
As mentioned before, inappropriate manual flying does create more work and thus, the time and place will depend on the conditions of flight and the ability of the Flt crew.
IMHO
[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]
However I find that I can respond to tricky SID's out of london airports with a far greater accuacy than the AFDS. I even use...shock horror FLT level change at 1000' when a low level Alt Cap is a prospect. Why? because then, even if I catch the AFDS as the modes are just changing, I still know exactly what modes it's going to annunciate and you don't get a mad scrabble trying to sort out the AFDS.
Half the SID violations in our Company were due to us trying to force the AFDS to fly and respond smoothly to a flight regime that it could not handle. SID violations are now virtually none existent becuase we reverted to the "old" way of doing things, where required.
As mentioned before, inappropriate manual flying does create more work and thus, the time and place will depend on the conditions of flight and the ability of the Flt crew.
IMHO
[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]
Grandpa Aerotart
Hudson,
And so rather than practice he just waited to embarrass himself in the sim every 6 mths?
There are plenty of opportunities to practice manual flying skills and those who protest otherwise are just lazy and not very interested in their careers, just the monthly pay packets.
At the start of my jet flying career I was flying 35 minute average sectors in an F28 with lots of NPAs and a practice ILS every time there was one pointing at the runway I was using. 9 out of 10 practice approaches were flown raw data and guess what? the 6 monthly sim rides were a doddle.
Now I fly sectors which average probably two hours in a jet with dual FMS/EfIS etc and still handfly to at least 10000' on departure and from 5 to 7000' on descent. A practice NPA whenever the opportunity presents(not that often in Asia) and at least 2 or 3 raw data ILSs a month...and still the scan rate is not what it was.
To do less than that is unteniable, I can still fly a nice Flight Idle NDB approach or manual/raw data DME arc onto an ILS but I definately work harder at it than I used to and it's only due less practice.
Flying manually and without FD in cruise gets your scan rate going flat out and teaches you a subtlety of control that pays big dividends in the sim, provided of course you challenge yourself to fly +/- nothing.
Depends what you want to be I suppose, a PILOT or a SYSTEMS MONITOR.
Chuck.
PS. A fellow ex PX F28 mate recently did B717 type rating training at Long Beach and reported that they wanted virtually EVERYTHING done on the automagics, assy ILSs etc, just press the off button for the landing. When he proceeded to fly them beautifully manually they were all most impressed....he just thought it was normal to expect a Jet Captain to be able to do that. It's a disgrace that 'the system' tries to take away the very best oportunity to practice the skills we all bemoan the loss of
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
And so rather than practice he just waited to embarrass himself in the sim every 6 mths?
There are plenty of opportunities to practice manual flying skills and those who protest otherwise are just lazy and not very interested in their careers, just the monthly pay packets.
At the start of my jet flying career I was flying 35 minute average sectors in an F28 with lots of NPAs and a practice ILS every time there was one pointing at the runway I was using. 9 out of 10 practice approaches were flown raw data and guess what? the 6 monthly sim rides were a doddle.
Now I fly sectors which average probably two hours in a jet with dual FMS/EfIS etc and still handfly to at least 10000' on departure and from 5 to 7000' on descent. A practice NPA whenever the opportunity presents(not that often in Asia) and at least 2 or 3 raw data ILSs a month...and still the scan rate is not what it was.
To do less than that is unteniable, I can still fly a nice Flight Idle NDB approach or manual/raw data DME arc onto an ILS but I definately work harder at it than I used to and it's only due less practice.
Flying manually and without FD in cruise gets your scan rate going flat out and teaches you a subtlety of control that pays big dividends in the sim, provided of course you challenge yourself to fly +/- nothing.
Depends what you want to be I suppose, a PILOT or a SYSTEMS MONITOR.
Chuck.
PS. A fellow ex PX F28 mate recently did B717 type rating training at Long Beach and reported that they wanted virtually EVERYTHING done on the automagics, assy ILSs etc, just press the off button for the landing. When he proceeded to fly them beautifully manually they were all most impressed....he just thought it was normal to expect a Jet Captain to be able to do that. It's a disgrace that 'the system' tries to take away the very best oportunity to practice the skills we all bemoan the loss of
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]
In my experience David Learmount is part right and part wrong.
I used to fly a glass cockpit heavy on long haul and landed the aircraft perhaps once a week. Whilst this wasn't a problem I do wonder how I might have coped with a complex problem in a busy terminal area. Certain combinations of failure can be very taxing -as we all know - particularly if you are very tired.
Now I fly the LHS of a B737 and its a very different scenario. Plenty of practice at everything including technical problems on high density routes. I enjoy this job much more; its hands on and all my basic flying skills are employed.
The solution for the long haul EFIS pilot is more regular SIM practice. Say an hour a month of circuits.
This won't happen until the regulatory authorities decide its a problem.
With regard to David Learmount I know he sometimes doesn't get it quite right from out point of view but I am sure his heart is in the right place. I.E. the safety of the general public.
After all, I can't talk to the press about safety issues; my airline would sack me.
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]
I used to fly a glass cockpit heavy on long haul and landed the aircraft perhaps once a week. Whilst this wasn't a problem I do wonder how I might have coped with a complex problem in a busy terminal area. Certain combinations of failure can be very taxing -as we all know - particularly if you are very tired.
Now I fly the LHS of a B737 and its a very different scenario. Plenty of practice at everything including technical problems on high density routes. I enjoy this job much more; its hands on and all my basic flying skills are employed.
The solution for the long haul EFIS pilot is more regular SIM practice. Say an hour a month of circuits.
This won't happen until the regulatory authorities decide its a problem.
With regard to David Learmount I know he sometimes doesn't get it quite right from out point of view but I am sure his heart is in the right place. I.E. the safety of the general public.
After all, I can't talk to the press about safety issues; my airline would sack me.
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]
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Might I suggest we all re-read the article in The Independent. I have to say this kind of simplistic claptrap really makes my blood boil.
I would agree that as professional airline pilots we can debate the merits of hands-on versus automatic flight.
But to my mind the question this thread poses is why a self-styled "safety expert" can denigrate our professionalism in such an offhand and perjorative fashion, with no comeback?
If manual flying skills are so bad, I'd love to know who's flying the sodding aircraft on a dark, wet night with a slippery runway and a nasty gusting crosswind right on limits? How come millions of flights go on every year in horrible weather without incident?
As for the future, as a short haul jet trainer I've seen many low time pilots whose handling skills develop very quickly to the required standard and beyond. Those who don't won't have a job. Simple.
Yes, equipment is changing, the F-16 was designed to be more pilot friendly than the Phantom. The A-320 has a different design philosophy to the B-737. What is important is that the pilot's skills and training match the needs and demands of the specific aircraft type. This invalidates Mr Learmount's simplistic observation. I would suggest the examples he cites are more to do with CRM issues than handling skill deficiencies. Not much point in doing a perfectly flown manual ILS if it leads to a big smoking hole in the ground because neither pilot noticed the wrong QNH was set.
The challenge for the future is to make sure that the training and checking systems in place complement the specific equipment being used. Ironically, it was not a lack of manual flying skills but inadequate training and understanding of the pitfalls of FMS that led to accidents such as Cali and some of the early Airbus incidents.
Remember, only we can protect our professional reputations. Constructive criticism within the industry is welcome and healthy, but when it comes from an "expert" who doesn't actually do the job, and implies that all we do is push a button to get from A to B, then I for one switch off to anything of value this man might have to say.
For goodness sake Mr Learmount, as a former RAF transport pilot you of all people must know the misconceptions and untruths spewed forth daily about pilots. Why you chose to reinforce these prejudices I'll never know, suffice to say it does nothing for your own professional standing in my humble opinion.
The vast majority of us are too modest about this job. We work bloody hard, we have huge responsibility, and yes, we are skilled. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Maximum ]
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Maximum ]
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Maximum ]
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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I do wonder how DL has become a "leading safety expert".
Has he been a member of the AIB?
Or
Has he done an in depth course on the Microsoft Flight Simulator?
Or
Does he appear on TV every time there has been a tragic accident and give the viewers his instant view of the cause?
I think we should be told.
Has he been a member of the AIB?
Or
Has he done an in depth course on the Microsoft Flight Simulator?
Or
Does he appear on TV every time there has been a tragic accident and give the viewers his instant view of the cause?
I think we should be told.