Excel B.738 Serious incident at EGCC

[brain fade]

Mad as a Mad thing

I take your point of course. Never pleasent to be the first to stick ones head over the parapet.

On the other hand, how wou feel, as the ATCO, if it had piled into these trucks killing all on board, while all the time you knew what was going on was a crock of sh.t but never had the guts to speak out?

I know there are always 'consequences'. For pilots and pax they can be more serious than for traffickers. (that poor Swiss guy excepted of course).

Easy after the event, mind.

[late developer]

Originally Posted by Mad As A Mad Thing

In this business it's really easy to earn a reputation for being difficult or a trouble maker, just because of tendency to not unquestioningly accept everything that management do. A reputation like that (even if a result of the best possible intentions) is likely to damage anyone's career prospects, cos we all know that you can't get on unless you toe the party line. So anyone with an ounce of ambition is going to face a very real conflict of interests in this situation.

This is the same for everyone in aviation. If you say nothing you are part of the problem and are guilty of risking people's lives in exchange for your own commercial self-preservation.

Join an effective union if you don't feel strong enough on your own to say No. Regain some strength of conviction that way, but don't hide and take the line of least resistance.

I agree Spinnaker is of the right stuff

[old-timer]

Concerning !

A very concerning thread - tip of the ice berg ? - I sincerely hope not ...but
in the real world....there but for the grace of Accountants & Directors ....angels fear to tread !

Well said Spinnaker a few posts aft,
let commanders command -

[Llademos]

Originally Posted by Musket90

STN has just completed runway resurfacing when for 9 months and for 3 night a week the runway operated at reduced distance with many movements taking place without incident. It can be done if all involved take the time to identify the risks and how to mitigate against them.
Looks like MAN could learn a lot from LGW, LHR and STN when it comes to planning and carrying out runway works.

Hear hear ... STN may have its detractors, but the notification and continuing conduct of the runway works was pretty much faultless - and finished on time too!

[Safety's No Accident]

An airline I once worked for had a poster on the wall that said:

"If you think safety's expensive?... Try having an accident !"

Wise words, imho, that should be obligatory in every Boardroom.

[Sleeve Wing]

Originally Posted by spinnaker

It's long overdue for safety to be put first, Chief execs to trust their Captains and crew, and commanders to bloody well command!

Spinnaker mate, 'twas ever thus.
When I first worked for an airline, we were given a roster and an aeroplane and expected to get on with the job.
Ops. and ground staff were great, ATC were (nearly) always understanding, engineering were brilliant.
No hassle with getting from the carpark, no hassle from Security, no jobsworth from any department trying to score points.
We were allowed to get on with the job. Everybody was in it together, to get on with it and hopefully make a profit........and we felt good if the day went well. - tired too, but not sh*gged out.

Sure, we had to have the right answers if it went pear-shaped but overall we were allowed to run "our bit".

The point is that EVERYONE,.... crews, airport staff, catering, fuellers, EVERYONE, ... knew what they had to do, without fear of petty reprisal; no looking over the shoulder. The captain was the coordinator.

It's all changed , hasn't it? .....................Progress ??

[Nubboy]

"Remember that without the added errors of the Excel crew, this incident would not have taken place."

I really can't believe this comment from a colleague in a parallel profession.

This implies that you are willing to watch an unsafe operation develop, because any subsequent accident or incident will be the other guys mistake not yours.

This completely beggars belief.

Any time I'm stupid enough to get in a situation where I have to get everything absolutely right (not just at work I hasten to add), to get a successful or safe outcome, then I've already screwed up.

PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. We have to have slack in the system to allow for the errors we don't intend to make.

[sox6]

CAA response:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/factor200646.pdf

This part caught my eye - emphasis added:

Recommendation 2006-11
It is recommended that the Civil Aviation Authority, in conjunction with National Air Traffic Services and other air traffic service providers, jointly review the current risk analysis associated with operations from runways when at reduced length, to ensure that it remains valid.

CAA Response
The Civil Aviation Authority accepts this safety recommendation. Each Air Navigation Service Provider’s Safety Management System requires a risk assessment to be completed for every change of operational procedure.
Therefore, the Civil Aviation Authority will remind all Air Navigation Service Providers and Airport Operators, of the requirement to conduct a risk assessment prior to the introduction of operations from runways at reduced length.
The Civil Aviation Authority will also remind Air Navigation Service Providers of the need to ensure that, where they and the Airport Operator use separate safety management systems, a robust and effective interface between the two systems is established and maintained.

Is this just a lazy fudge when they don't want to object to the recommendation??

Or perhaps they want to emulate Safety's No Accident and just put some Stalinist style messages up.

[Maude Charlee]

Would this be at all connected with the current search for a new chief pilot at Excel?

[omnidirectional737]

Originally Posted by Maude Charlee

Would this be at all connected with the current search for a new chief pilot at Excel?

No, seeing as the curent one is being made DFO.

[Adola69]

Stupid people make Stupid mistakes

Originally Posted by Nubboy

PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. We have to have slack in the system to allow for the errors we don't intend to make.

There was slack in the system, - apart from some probably brown (later to be disgarded )undergarments - (well I hope they were?) nothing hit anything and nobody was injured.There had been no problems with the reduced length available to other users prior to this. It is a procedure that has been used many times before without any problem but like with everytning else these days you get just one incident occuring where someone hasn't done their job properly and the whole system is called into question instead of the muppet who made the error.
There were the normal systems in place, NOTAM, ATIS Broadcast, ATC R/T input - that is a TRIPLEX system - good enough for me!

[Daysleeper]

There had been no problems with the reduced length available to other users prior to this.

Apart from the 146, the 3 go arounds including the tristar from 600' and all the other ones that may have occured but no one reported/noticed.

Oh and the fact that the incident appears to highlight massive deficiencies in the airports safety management system and the fact that the ATC provider appeared unprepared to stand up to the owners because of commercial considerations and the ATC bods on duty were aparently unprepared to take action to protect life because they were afraid of disciplinary action. That and the crews actions makes this look like sheer luck that this was not 180+ corpses scattered over the runway.

Keep living in your rose tinted world Adola.

[Mariner9]

Only a ppl so feel free to shoot me down, but I'm surprised that such a lengthy report largely ignored the 3 G/A aircraft -surely they should have had appropriate Notams & Arrival ATIS too?