Cat III Overrun Incident KSEA

[Zeffy]

FAA Preliminary here:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...a/I_1204_N.txt
(RVR is in feet, not meters)

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** Report created 12/5/2006 Record 1 **
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IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 411QX Make/Model: DH8A Description: DHC-8-100 Dash 8 (E-9, CT-142, CC-142)
Date: 12/02/2006 Time: 1801

Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor

LOCATION
City: SEATTLE State: WA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A/C LANDED RWY 16C AND OVER RAN THE END OF THE RUNWAY, SEATTLE, WA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: ATIS 1753Z 320/03 VSBY 1/4 600V 800F 1 OVC 064

OTHER DATA
Activity: Business Phase: Landing Operation: Air Carrier

Departed: BOISE Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: SEATTLE Flt Plan: IFR Wx Briefing:
Last Radio Cont:
Last Clearance:

FAA FSDO: SEATTLE, WA (NM01) Entry date: 12/04/2006

Approach Plate:
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0612/00582I16CC3.PDF

Airport Diagram:
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0612/00582AD.PDF

Any other details available?

[ATC Watcher]

A Dash 8-100 CAT III equipped and crew CATIII certified ?

[Duff beer]

Do they do CAT 3 approaches in the US?

[ironbutt57]

Yes they do operate CAT III in the USA

[Zeffy]

HUD Cat IIIa

The aircraft registration would indicate an operation by Horizon Air.
http://www.shanaberger.com/airlines/horizon_q400.htm

This web site lists HUD Cat IIIa (fail-passive) approval for the Q400 version of the Dash.
http://www.rockwellcollins.com/ecat/...l_Collins.html

But with the accuracy inherent with HUD Cat III operations, how an aircraft -- especially a T-prop -- goes off the far end of a 9400-ft runway is a bit of a puzzle.

[alf5071h]

Originally Posted by Zeffy

... with the accuracy inherent with HUD Cat III operations, how an aircraft -- especially a T-prop -- goes off the far end of a 9400-ft runway is a bit of a puzzle.

This could turn out to be an important event for Cat 3 operations and the use of HUD. I cannot recall any previous Cat 3 accidents due to equipment. If the use of the HUD is determined to be a contributor, then perhaps the differences between autoland and manual landings in Cat 3 should be revisited. It could be possible that HUDs enable opportunities for error that are not apparent with an autopilot.
Many factors in overrun accidents (and solutions) are given in ALAR TEM; HUD does not appear in the listings either as positive or negative input; have any significant issues been encountered during Cat 3 HUD operations?

[PaperTiger]

Originally Posted by Zeffy

The aircraft registration would indicate an operation by Horizon Air.
But with the accuracy inherent with HUD Cat III operations, how an aircraft -- especially a T-prop -- goes off the far end of a 9400-ft runway is a bit of a puzzle.

This did not even make the local TV news, which given their usual shock,horror approach, probably means it was a relative non-event. Can't find a reference in the papers either.

The initial filings with the FAA are frequently umm.. incomplete; I would be very surprised if the Q400 went off the end of 16C. My guess is it either exited the side during rollout or (more likely IMO) just slid off one of the turnouts, not the actual runway.

[Zeffy]

Originally Posted by PaperTiger

...did not even make the local TV news, which given their usual shock,horror approach...

"Inches from doom", eh?

My guess is it either exited the side during rollout or (more likely IMO) just slid off one of the turnouts, not the actual runway.

That would make more sense to me as well -- thanks.

[DownIn3Green]

We did CAT III at EAL in the 80's with the 727's. Captain's landing, 3 computers, and manual thrust levers at 50' +/- 5'.

All 3 crew knew their jobs and it is just as exciting in real life as it is in the sim...

CAT IIIA has guidance after touchdown...

So what was it? CAT III or CAT III A?

[Zeffy]

Cat IIIA.

http://www.rockwellcollins.com/produ...ogy/index.html

The HUD in the incident aircraft provides runway remaining information that counts down in 500 ft increments. (5000 feet remaining in the first pic at the above link).

And obviously, the crew training would certainly have included runway lighting, the changes from white CL lights to red/white and to all red, etc.

So this remains a puzzling incident...

[BVT94]

Did they have HGS 4000 installed?

[ray cosmic]

Originally Posted by alf5071h

This could turn out to be an important event for Cat 3 operations and the use of HUD. I cannot recall any previous Cat 3 accidents due to equipment. If the use of the HUD is determined to be a contributor, then perhaps the differences between autoland and manual landings in Cat 3 should be revisited. It could be possible that HUDs enable opportunities for error that are not apparent with an autopilot.
Many factors in overrun accidents (and solutions) are given in ALAR TEM; HUD does not appear in the listings either as positive or negative input; have any significant issues been encountered during Cat 3 HUD operations?

Perhaps the crew had a bad day, and then again maybe not...

[Middle Seat]

yep...all of Horizon's fleet (the Q-200s and the Q-400s) has HUGS installed. Some foggy places in these parts.

[alf5071h]

Originally Posted by ray cosmic

... Perhaps the crew had a bad day, and then again maybe not...

ray cosmic – but the regulations and operational assumptions made about HUD Cat 3A should accommodate ‘a bad day’. One issue is that if only one pilot has a HUD then his bad day may be more critical than that of the combined crew’s ‘bad day’ in conventional landings.

[ray cosmic]

From what I heard of the HGS used on Embraer 145s -Rockwell Collins- is that it is extremely accurate in tracking, trends (speed etc) are displayed more accurate then on the PFD and if you're getting out of any limit, the whole thing blanks with a big warning displayed on the HUD. Meaning that you fly it properly down to the runway, or the system will not guide you. So in this way, you would not be able to have overspeeds, excessive ROD etc. Don't know what is being used on the Dash, though.

[Fokker28]

Of course we do CATIII approaches! What a silly question! Horizon has HGS and CAT III capability in all of our aircraft (Q-200, Q-400, and CRJ).

According to a company memo, they were just aiming for the last turnoff and fu**ed it up. A bad day, indeed!

I can't remember the model of our HGS, but it does provide a countdown of runway remaining, as well as a flare cue and centerline guidance.

Oh, and we don't even operate any Dash 100s anymore. It was a Q400.

[Middle Seat]

...but

They've rid themselves of all of the F28s, as well. Where does that leave you, Fokker?

[Fokker28]

Originally Posted by Middle Seat

They've rid themselves of all of the F28s, as well. Where does that leave you, Fokker?

Oh, wishing we hadn't, mostly!

[pakeha-boy]

get a grip boys...the best of us flew the DO-328....and hand flew the metro to CAT 3 when you girls were,t looking......if it was the 400,it must have been one one the senior pukes above the old #,s 8500......is that dickH@ED SPIKE still there

[Fokker28]

Originally Posted by pakeha-boy

get a grip boys...the best of us flew the DO-328....and hand flew the metro to CAT 3 when you girls were,t looking......if it was the 400,it must have been one one the senior pukes above the old #,s 8500......is that dickH@ED SPIKE still there

Try that again, in English, Ma'am.