When are Company SOP's Dangerous?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've had the opportunity to fly both in western and eastern "type" companies, both with their sop's and lack of sop's for some of them, all formed with a variety of pilots coming with widely different backgrounds, education and experience levels and I can say sop's are good, they are wonderful as long as they have been developed with consideration to the respective type of operation and workforce characteristics by the operator.
They usually enhance safety and if used properly set the tone for good cockpit atmosphere and CRM. But THEY ARE NEVER A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOOD JUDGMENT AND AIRMANSHIP. as simple as that.
happy new year!
They usually enhance safety and if used properly set the tone for good cockpit atmosphere and CRM. But THEY ARE NEVER A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOOD JUDGMENT AND AIRMANSHIP. as simple as that.
happy new year!
Guest
Posts: n/a
and just who is the judge of what good airmenship is?? mostly these judges are within the very same company the very same non lateral thinking guys. to them good airmenship is religious sticking to what has been declared company sop's, and we are back to square one.
YRVLD: There appears to be a paradox. Airmanship and common sense?
My comments on a previous page were attacked as not so smart when I suggested that SOPs should also conform to experience and judgement.
If following a yellow 'safety' line will possibly result in your left wing hitting either the wall or luggage carts and leftover ground equipment, are many pilots on YOUR side of the Atlantik taught that the line must always be followed, for example, even when taxiing into gate B-40 at Newark (EWR)?
When you hear first-hand from other pilots that a certain Montana mountain airport can quickly develop unforecast fog from a nearby lake, or a sudden light snow shower (the control tower will be closed...no snow plowing possible..), SOPs do not require that you TELL Dispatch (aren't you the Captain?) to add extra fuel for a return over the mountain to a nearby airport.
My comments on a previous page were attacked as not so smart when I suggested that SOPs should also conform to experience and judgement.
If following a yellow 'safety' line will possibly result in your left wing hitting either the wall or luggage carts and leftover ground equipment, are many pilots on YOUR side of the Atlantik taught that the line must always be followed, for example, even when taxiing into gate B-40 at Newark (EWR)?
When you hear first-hand from other pilots that a certain Montana mountain airport can quickly develop unforecast fog from a nearby lake, or a sudden light snow shower (the control tower will be closed...no snow plowing possible..), SOPs do not require that you TELL Dispatch (aren't you the Captain?) to add extra fuel for a return over the mountain to a nearby airport.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SWE
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rubik, I believe the reason for stating that what we expect to occur has in fact occured is that we should not forget to check it and thereby not notice/discover a problem in time. For example the "speedbrakes up" call in the B737. However these calls has to be limited to the most essential systems.
I try my very best to follow SOP´s but I also like the following:
Temporary deviations from the Standard Operating Procedures are allowed if, in the opinion of the Commander, it will result in a safer and/ or more efficient Flight Operation. Deviation shall be properly briefed and understood by ALL Flight Crew Members.
I try my very best to follow SOP´s but I also like the following:
Temporary deviations from the Standard Operating Procedures are allowed if, in the opinion of the Commander, it will result in a safer and/ or more efficient Flight Operation. Deviation shall be properly briefed and understood by ALL Flight Crew Members.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IGNITION OVERRIDE: Although I am not familiar with EWR, I see what you mean and you are probably correct about following the yellow line.. Now, about the mountain airport example, there are alot of those in Europe too and what you described can happen in alot of ill equipped eastern european airports, some of them in the mountains. And of course, you as a captain WILL take more fuel, written in the sop or not. That's first common sense and there is no paradox in putting common sense toghether with good airmanship and sop's.
TURTLENECK: I see your point, but in the end, the judge of your good airmanship is the outcome of your flight. And all that happened in between you getting in that plane and getting out of it. Has the flight been treated professionally by you and your crew, has it been safe, comfortable for it's passengers, have you and your crew applied companie's sop's at all times and deviated from it when needed with proper briefings and correct understanding of the reasons for those deviations? Even more so, have all this been done in bad wx? Then you've used good airmanship. And I belive even most of those non lateral thinking guys will think the same.
rgds
TURTLENECK: I see your point, but in the end, the judge of your good airmanship is the outcome of your flight. And all that happened in between you getting in that plane and getting out of it. Has the flight been treated professionally by you and your crew, has it been safe, comfortable for it's passengers, have you and your crew applied companie's sop's at all times and deviated from it when needed with proper briefings and correct understanding of the reasons for those deviations? Even more so, have all this been done in bad wx? Then you've used good airmanship. And I belive even most of those non lateral thinking guys will think the same.
rgds
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been asked quite a few times by other pilots and students about my interpretation of SOP and adherence to them.
I tend to liken SOP to the Green Arc on (pre NG) intruments. Operations within the arc provide a generally stress free pleasent flying envirnment. Actions expected and understood by all involved.
If circumstances require one to action outside the Green Arc in the Yellow band we will not immedietly self destruct, but we'd best have a very good reason for going there and be sure both the reason and action are well understood by all involved. The Red Arc would be Negligent, Malicious and suicidal flying (ass kicked out the door if you survive stuff).
All that said, like the guage, it's only as good as it was made. I'm quite lucky in that our SOPs are well thought out, logical and easy to follow but I do understand some airlines SOPs are subject to political interference (internal and external) and wierd personality inputs.
I tend to liken SOP to the Green Arc on (pre NG) intruments. Operations within the arc provide a generally stress free pleasent flying envirnment. Actions expected and understood by all involved.
If circumstances require one to action outside the Green Arc in the Yellow band we will not immedietly self destruct, but we'd best have a very good reason for going there and be sure both the reason and action are well understood by all involved. The Red Arc would be Negligent, Malicious and suicidal flying (ass kicked out the door if you survive stuff).
All that said, like the guage, it's only as good as it was made. I'm quite lucky in that our SOPs are well thought out, logical and easy to follow but I do understand some airlines SOPs are subject to political interference (internal and external) and wierd personality inputs.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember back in flight school an instructor who took a friend of mine into a private room next to the ops room after an ... ermmmm... interesting flight. Through the thin walls we all heard the chewing out, including the phrase "You FLY THE BL***Y AEROPLANE or you'll be a smoking hole in the ground, checks complete!"
I thought it was good advice
I thought it was good advice
