Korean Pilots in Jail

[Herb]

4 Korean pilots are being detained in jail in Korea for union activities. Please visit their support page and leave a message of support.
As of today they have spent 58 days in custody.
No abusive comments please, these guys were and are trying to defend your profession from management terrorism.
http://www.kalfcu.or.kr/english/

Steve Chung (Korean IFALPA Director and B737 F/O and a real gent! ) can be contacted at [email protected] if you have any questions.

Herb

PS Would appreciate some help keeping this post near the top. TKS.

[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Herb ]

[vertical speed]

And to think I had considered working in Korea! Sounds even more heavy handed than the recent antics of a certain Irish Airline!

[Lou Scannon]

Difficult to believe that a so-called civilised Government could risk losing so much face in international affairs.
Can it really be that these men have been jailed for simply pushing a union viewpoint?

If this is how they treat their own voters I can well imagine how they treat expats!

What is Balpa's viewpoint on this?

[info4u]

It is to be expected, be it Korea, Singapore or China or the Arab countries, any/all of these countries that pretend to be Democratic and Civilized.
Civilazation to them mean having expensive cars, newest aircrafts, everything money can buy, to ape the West, as long as you don't ask/ talk/ discuss or go against the dictatorship which is present & practiced under the guise of Democracy.

Democracy with a twist! You are given a choice ( have your unions ) but DO not Dare to question the Lords and Masters or heads will roll.
IT is indeed pathetic the way these countries treat humans stripping them off diginity.

[Pilot Pete]

Received my copy of 'The Log' today which mentions the four unfortunate pilots from KAL in the Gen Sec's (Christopher Darke) column.

He says, and I quote, "Behind all of this is the right of the Flight Crew Union(FCU) to represent its members and be properly treated by the airline and the government. IFALPA and BALPA, together with Flight Crew Associations around the world, continue to put pressure on the Korean authorities in support of the Korean pilots."

PP

[exeng]

An appalling state of affairs. KAL are exploring yet another means of committing commercial suicide, surely nobody in their right mind would ever consider taking employment with this outfit now.

My thoughts are with the four Pilots and their families.


Regards
Exeng

[fullforward]

Not to mention Asiana, its local competitor, wich is much worse.
An outstanding example of professional respect of the Stone Age!
Don't even consider apply for such an outfit.
I know about seasoned, competent professionals that on the belief were joining a serious professional commitment, moved to that stinky and polluted Seoul with families and had their contracts suddenly terminated under personnal (rather than technical) impressions from some mad check pilots...
Their evaluation criteria is regarded as joke by its pilots: to be failed or not has nothing to do with competence, it is just a matter of the checkpilot humour.
There is much more...

[Idunno]

This thread needs to stay at top of theBB until these men are released.

[Kermit 180]

If they're imprisoned for simple union action, then that is one sick country.

RELEASE 'EM.

Kermie

[Lord Lucan]

This seems to be the time for a boycott of Korean Air.

For those of you out there who would consider flying on them in the first place

[Taildragger67]

Guys I'd suggest not only a boycott of Korean Air, but also of Korea... refusal to operate there would get this some front-page international attention PDQ, in the mainstream press not just the professional. Also, has IFALPA thought of contacting the ILO on this? Anyone spoken to ground crew unions re getting them to refuse to service KAL/Asiana a/c in foreign ports (a couple of 744s stuck on the ground at LHR or JFK would get things moving... ). What about a picket of KAL/Asiana check-ins/gates etc.? This stinks.

[Idunno]

This seems to be part of a growing trend in SE Asia. Last time it was the Taiwanese detaining the SIA crew.

IFALPA need to get on top of this PDQ.

[WANDERLUST]

There are two sides to every coin.
Checkout the other side.

As a matter of interest the KAL pilots union has insisted that the company hires no more foreign pilots and that it starts reducing the foreign pilots by 30% starting the first of 2002, regardless of the fact that KAL is short of crews.

Never support one side until you know the facts of the other side.

Regards
A bystander with no direct involment with KAL.

[exeng]

Wanderlust,

I'm sure you are correct with regard to the KAL union's stance on foreign pilot hiring.

You may disagree on that stance, but we are talking about four people in jail here. Jailing people for calling strikes can never be condoned regardless of the reasons for calling a strike.

So I'm supporting the side of decency if that is OK with you.


Regards
Exeng

[Tex Murphy]

Anyone with a bit of sense would stay away from that shanky outfit!

[lizard drinking]

The strike was called as a response to a call to participate in a general strike called for the whole of Korea by the militant unions. If the pilots did not support them, they could expect little support from them in the future. Because of the law concerning industrial action in Korea, the pilot participation was illegal, and everyone concerned knew that going in. The leaders of the pilot union knew the risks they were taking but chose to go ahead anyway.
And what did they ask for? More money? No, they refused an offer from the company for a pay rise, prefering to get the agreement to get rid of the foreign pilots instead.
And why the hatred (not too strong a word) of the foreigners? Why has nobody asked them why they fear a small group of pilots from all over the world who are there only to assist and help Korean Air, and Korea? They do not take jobs from Korean pilots, but allow for the airline to grow and prosper. The FOs are being promoted as fast as possible (far quicker than they should, in my opinion) yet the airline is still short of captains, especially experienced captains. Yet you can give a Korean pilot nightmares if you whisper in his ear while he is sleeping in his First Class seat "foreign pilots!"
In response to pressures from the Korean Govt and US/Canada/UK CAAs, the company has taken much of the control away from the Korean pilots and tasked foreigners to run or advise on the running of Operations and training. They are running English language courses, and employing foreign pilots to boost the experience levels and give the Korean FOs a chance to see how it should be done. Of course changes are not being made fast enough, and many opportunities are being lost, but they should be given credit for trying.
Control of the airline is the real aim of the pilots. When they had it, there were more accidents and incidents, but that was an acceptable price to pay, in their opinion.
Losing that control was the real bone of contention, and the locals will do anything they can to get that control back. Anything.
If you guys really want to see Korean aviation join the 21st century you will support Korean Air, not the pilots.

[Invaribly]

Just what is the real hang up with the KAL pilots with regards foreign pilots?Why the hatrid?
Indeed as I walked through the departure area in bangkok and saw the KAL flight crew of an A330,the korean captain looked fierce and said absolutly nothing to the 2 FO'S who walked quietly ahead of him with their heads down.I kid you not ,not even I could have questioned that guy in an emergancy because he looked like evil warmed up and ready to go!
And again,are things really that bad in Korean?Certainly I have heard so from many european pilots who call me "brave" just for flying with them as a pax!
As regards inexperienced captains and F/O'S .Just how inexperienced are we talking about here?How young are these capt's and F/O's and with how many hrs?
cheers.

[exeng]

Lizard Drinking,

You are making a very similar point to our other contributer 'wonderlust'. So OK point taken. From what I have read over the last few years I am of the opinion that the KAL union stance may be misguided. However there may be issues not yet recognised that may give a valid reason for the union's stance.

One thing is for sure, the airline cannot continue 'spiking them in' at the rate they have achieved in the last few years and still continue in business for much longer.

However do you not think it somewhat over the top to actually jail people for taking industrial action?

I agree with jailing people for murder, robbery, pedophilia etc. I might be old fashioned but I believe that throwing people in the slammer for withdrawing their labour is WRONG.

If KAL wish to move into the 21st century then they may just achieve it by communicating effectively with their workforce. In my opinion it is probably too late for that now and KAL as it is will die; and so it will be a 'lose, lose' situation.

For those in jail and their families, I am sorry it has come to this and I sincerely wish that you have an early end to your terrible ordeal.


Regards
exeng

[grange.guzzler]

Exeng. I agree with you, the jailing of guys for withdrawal of labour is barbaric.

However the facts are, as I understand them, that the guys are in jail at the behest of the government, not KAL. The strike was deemed to be illegal, they were notified of this prior to taking action, but still went ahead.
As part of the return to work the FCU negotiated that the company would withdraw any charges they had against the guys. I understand this was done.

If one was to adopt a cynical stance then one could assume that the company and the government were working hand in hand. I do not share that cynicism.

The sad part of the whole affair is that there is no provision for bail in the Korean system, in this sort of matter.

Fortunately the guys are well respected inside the prison as they are martyr's of the working class, and thus are not in the same danger from predators as they would be in the jails of Britain the US Australia etc.

[Jailed KAL Pilot]

Fellow Pilots of PPRuNe:

Thanks to the solidarity of our pilots from Hong Kong AOA, our website has been made available to many more concerned voices from the world pilot community.

Speaking on behalf of the Korean pilots, both KAL and Asiana, through my official position with IFALPA, we are very grateful for the overwhelming show of support and encouragement for our 4 jailed pilots.

Perhaps we have been too long silent on the issues, allowing people to conjecture on the complicated problem at KAL. Due to some of the content on the second page, I have been compelled to join this discussion, but with acknowlegment first to the right of all people to air their views freely without my imposition.

WANDERLUST was correct to note KAL Flight Crew Union's proposal to limit expat pilot hiring during the last negotiations which resulted in the June 12 strike.

We, as a labor union, and as the legally recognized bargaining agent on KAL property, make no apologies for our attempts at job security and workscope protection for our pilots.

With regard to the pilot shortage, whether management had planned for labor to sustain expansions, who has rights to these jobs first, etc., such are the issues for the collective bargaining process, which by the sum total experience of hundreds of thousands of pilots throughout history, must be honored in order for any organization to prosper and survive.

I contend that we have been stripped of these constitutional human rights in Korea, both by KAL management and the Korean Government Prosecutor.

As to the issues raised by LIZARD DRINKING, the "militant unions," yes by far, KAL FCU was one of the latest to join the ranks of the democratic KCTU, driven entirely by the wisdom of the old saying, that "management gets the union it deserves."

You said, "pilot participation was illegal," which by itself indicates your lack of grasp on the issues. Pilots struck independently as a unit, as voted by its members alone, and it was not a participation in someone else's decision. Its legality is still the question being tried at the courts, but of course, being a KAL management pilot if that's what you are, must be going on the briefings by the management legal department's yes men.

But surely you know that concerted strikes along affiliations are the bedrock of industrialism, again, to effectively pressure managements into good faith bargaining without government intervention, but that point was all but lost on KAL management, which had no intentions whatsoever of engaging its pilots as equals, as borne out by its actions to date, all according to the now exposed scripted plan to bust the union.

And did we not initially propose negotiating on the $40 million/year pay and benefit increase? Our requests for negotiation from the end of March was all but completely ignored by management, to where we decided to forego the pay increase at par with expat pilots to next year, in order to gain control over issues such as FOM revisions and FOQA agreement, and the scope control was really the last on the agenda.

It has also been written on this forum that "Koreans hate the expats." While I cannot speak for others in this regard, it is ironic that this is the very same gutter argument raised by the Prosecutor in this case, as fed from KAL management, to cloud the issues with irrelevant arguments of, sadly, ethnic strife.

I close by telling you of my experience on July 25, when I was fired from the company for my union activities. I had been interrogated by the Prosecutor all day, who did not hesitate to tell me that I would be fired by KAL management at his behest, for going against my word of not writing information such as this to the outside world, which was conceded under duress on the evening of the day of my release from a previous night in jail. When I went to see my fellow pilots that evening, they told me that I had indeed been fired, that afternoon.

Back to the subject at hand, fellow airline pilots of the world, union or not, I thank you for your solidarity on behalf of the pilots of Korea.

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Jailed KAL Pilot ]