age 65
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Hey Beamer, how come it took you so long to find out?! Or is it OK to be 'half way across the Atlantic' up to your 60th birthday but not the day after. If you feel so bad about it now, why not quit and start doing those 'better things with your life' now rather than later. Or do you need the money?
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[quote=Centaurus;3010290]The reason why some pilots have a short innings after compulsory retirement is that may not want to retire - and believe me it's not the money. It is because flying has been their life and the view from 41,000 ft is just as beautiful at age 60 or 70 as it is at age 20.
Eureka... the fountain of youth has been found. The longer you work the longer you live (mental note to self; plan to work to 100yrs) with respect...... I think you may be disappointed.
PS; interesting that no one "here" has mentioned their wives, family, friends or other significants..... Hmmm
.....(see my earlier post)
Eureka... the fountain of youth has been found. The longer you work the longer you live (mental note to self; plan to work to 100yrs) with respect...... I think you may be disappointed.
PS; interesting that no one "here" has mentioned their wives, family, friends or other significants..... Hmmm
.....(see my earlier post)
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Demoted Air NZ pilot, 60, wins fight
Sunday December 10, 2006
By Catherine Woulfe
An Air New Zealand pilot who was automatically demoted on his 60th birthday has won a discrimination case against the national carrier on the grounds of "ageism" - and says he can't wait to get back into his captain's uniform.
David McAlister, now 62, told the Herald on Sunday he had applied to be reinstated as captain as soon as he heard Judge Coral Shaw's decision that the company's treatment of him had been discriminatory and unlawful.
He also planned to claim compensation. "It was a fight... but I'm delighted with the outcome".
The Employment Court decision is potentially groundbreaking and could mean the company has to change its policy - and wrestle with dozens of international laws regarding age limits.
New Zealand has no age limit, but to fit with overseas laws, Air New Zealand pilots flying certain aircraft have had to give up the captain's seat when they turn 60. They can still work as co-pilot, or fly domestic routes, but these jobs are lower-paid and many pilots have simply retired instead.
McAlister spent 35 years with the company, and had been a flight instructor and chief pilot, as well as pilot in command. If he was reinstated as captain, he would now be able to fly freely for a further three years, because the International Civil Aviation Authority last month bumped its age limit from 60 to 65.
When he turns 65 he can still fly certain routes, including to and from Australia. However, the airline said in evidence that these routes were coveted and giving them to older pilots would create further problems.
"This would lead to a loss of goodwill from other pilots to such an extent that they may resign or bring personal grievances."
Lawyer Kevin Thompson said Air New Zealand had done everything it could to have preserved his employment.
In her decision, Judge Shaw sympathised with the airline's position and agreed the rosters were "immensely complicated" - but said there was direct evidence the company's decision was based purely on age.
"The fact that Air New Zealand did not intend (and I find that it did not intend) to actively discriminate on the basis of age, does not detract from the fact that but for his age, Mr McAlister would not have been limited in the range of flying activities which he could undertake."
Air New Zealand still has time to appeal against the court's decision but representative Tracey Palmer said the company could not comment.
Former pilot Ken Mulgrew (66) is now working in China, as general manager of a pilot training company.
He received a settlement from Air New Zealand after being dropped from his job as captain when he turned 60.
Although the company gave him "golden opportunities" when he was younger, he said the offer of lower-paid positions after he hit 60 was "hollow". "Most of us [pilots] are climbers, most of us are those sorts of people, we're driven... Some guys accepted it. I couldn't, and wouldn't. I just didn't think it was right.
"I would have packed it in at about 65. You've got a fairly good idea when you're capable, or wise, to continue on - I think most guys have that."
Some older pilots chose to fly lighter aircraft, worked in simulators, or quit the industry altogether, Mulgrew said. "When you've had 30 years of flying experience... you've had a huge amount of experience and the experience is just so valuable... To throw somebody on the slagheap at that point is pretty foolish."
Sunday December 10, 2006
By Catherine Woulfe
An Air New Zealand pilot who was automatically demoted on his 60th birthday has won a discrimination case against the national carrier on the grounds of "ageism" - and says he can't wait to get back into his captain's uniform.
David McAlister, now 62, told the Herald on Sunday he had applied to be reinstated as captain as soon as he heard Judge Coral Shaw's decision that the company's treatment of him had been discriminatory and unlawful.
He also planned to claim compensation. "It was a fight... but I'm delighted with the outcome".
The Employment Court decision is potentially groundbreaking and could mean the company has to change its policy - and wrestle with dozens of international laws regarding age limits.
New Zealand has no age limit, but to fit with overseas laws, Air New Zealand pilots flying certain aircraft have had to give up the captain's seat when they turn 60. They can still work as co-pilot, or fly domestic routes, but these jobs are lower-paid and many pilots have simply retired instead.
McAlister spent 35 years with the company, and had been a flight instructor and chief pilot, as well as pilot in command. If he was reinstated as captain, he would now be able to fly freely for a further three years, because the International Civil Aviation Authority last month bumped its age limit from 60 to 65.
When he turns 65 he can still fly certain routes, including to and from Australia. However, the airline said in evidence that these routes were coveted and giving them to older pilots would create further problems.
"This would lead to a loss of goodwill from other pilots to such an extent that they may resign or bring personal grievances."
Lawyer Kevin Thompson said Air New Zealand had done everything it could to have preserved his employment.
In her decision, Judge Shaw sympathised with the airline's position and agreed the rosters were "immensely complicated" - but said there was direct evidence the company's decision was based purely on age.
"The fact that Air New Zealand did not intend (and I find that it did not intend) to actively discriminate on the basis of age, does not detract from the fact that but for his age, Mr McAlister would not have been limited in the range of flying activities which he could undertake."
Air New Zealand still has time to appeal against the court's decision but representative Tracey Palmer said the company could not comment.
Former pilot Ken Mulgrew (66) is now working in China, as general manager of a pilot training company.
He received a settlement from Air New Zealand after being dropped from his job as captain when he turned 60.
Although the company gave him "golden opportunities" when he was younger, he said the offer of lower-paid positions after he hit 60 was "hollow". "Most of us [pilots] are climbers, most of us are those sorts of people, we're driven... Some guys accepted it. I couldn't, and wouldn't. I just didn't think it was right.
"I would have packed it in at about 65. You've got a fairly good idea when you're capable, or wise, to continue on - I think most guys have that."
Some older pilots chose to fly lighter aircraft, worked in simulators, or quit the industry altogether, Mulgrew said. "When you've had 30 years of flying experience... you've had a huge amount of experience and the experience is just so valuable... To throw somebody on the slagheap at that point is pretty foolish."
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[QUOTE=slamer.;3011184]
Yeah.... It's such a short innings I want it to myself. Don't want a family... Just want to see the world from FL410 every now and then. I want to retire at 57.9875 years... I've worked it out.... That will alleviate my desire to find another job after 55 and stop me geting stressed till I'm 60. Hurrah!!! Lets go sailing, golfing, drinking and w@@@@ing....
The reason why some pilots have a short innings after compulsory retirement is that may not want to retire - and believe me it's not the money. It is because flying has been their life and the view from 41,000 ft is just as beautiful at age 60 or 70 as it is at age 20.
Eureka... the fountain of youth has been found. The longer you work the longer you live (mental note to self; plan to work to 100yrs) with respect...... I think you may be disappointed.
PS; interesting that no one "here" has mentioned their wives, family, friends or other significants..... Hmmm .....(see my earlier post)
Eureka... the fountain of youth has been found. The longer you work the longer you live (mental note to self; plan to work to 100yrs) with respect...... I think you may be disappointed.
PS; interesting that no one "here" has mentioned their wives, family, friends or other significants..... Hmmm
.....(see my earlier post)Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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To add 'fuel to the fire', I heard from a well-placed industry source that there is a group of 65+ pilots in the process of suing the CAA for 'loss of employment'. Interesting times.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Many of the replies here seem to have come from airline pilots, but there are many of we professional aviators who fly helicopters. Even as Captains, many of us earn less than an SFO flying heavy jets for a large airline. Many of us want to work longer to be able to enjoy the sort of retirement that it seems many of the fixed wing respondents here take for granted. Many of us also, seem less bored and disillusioned with our trade and still enjoy every day that we are able to cast forth the bonds of earth - maybe because we fly low and slow enough to be able to enjoy the scenery (except for those who fly entirely offshore and just see the sea! 
).
The helicopter world is not entirely dominated by seniority and numbers and it is quite common for many helicopter pilots to get a command soon after getting an ATPL(H) and 2,500 to 3,000 hours. It is also quite common, in the two-crew environmemt to have 2 Captains flying together; today's commander may well be the co-pilot to the guy he's flying with tomorrow. The airline industry seems obsessed with keeping perfectly competent, well-qualified pilots in the co-pilots seat until some arbitrary number is reached and he's considered for command.
In Nigeria, pilots over the age of 60 have to have a stress ECG every 2 years, in addition to the six-monthly resting ECG. Surely it should be the case that if someone is able to maintain a Clas One medical and pass all his professional checks, he should be able to continue flying. Those who want to retire at 50 are welcome to do so and let those who want to continue beyond that to do so. I've known pilots who are already growing old and unfit in their forties and others who are still young and fit in their late sixties. I know pilots of all ages who find it difficult to pass a professional check. Younger pilots have faster reaction times and older pilots have a greater reserve of experience to draw on. A good pilot will nearly always be good, and a bad one, bad. The law of averages means that most of us are really just average. We probably all thought we were hotshot aces early in our careers, and experience taught us that actually, such pilots are the exception rather than the rule
.
).The helicopter world is not entirely dominated by seniority and numbers and it is quite common for many helicopter pilots to get a command soon after getting an ATPL(H) and 2,500 to 3,000 hours. It is also quite common, in the two-crew environmemt to have 2 Captains flying together; today's commander may well be the co-pilot to the guy he's flying with tomorrow. The airline industry seems obsessed with keeping perfectly competent, well-qualified pilots in the co-pilots seat until some arbitrary number is reached and he's considered for command.
In Nigeria, pilots over the age of 60 have to have a stress ECG every 2 years, in addition to the six-monthly resting ECG. Surely it should be the case that if someone is able to maintain a Clas One medical and pass all his professional checks, he should be able to continue flying. Those who want to retire at 50 are welcome to do so and let those who want to continue beyond that to do so. I've known pilots who are already growing old and unfit in their forties and others who are still young and fit in their late sixties. I know pilots of all ages who find it difficult to pass a professional check. Younger pilots have faster reaction times and older pilots have a greater reserve of experience to draw on. A good pilot will nearly always be good, and a bad one, bad. The law of averages means that most of us are really just average. We probably all thought we were hotshot aces early in our careers, and experience taught us that actually, such pilots are the exception rather than the rule
.
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Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Now I am really confused! I understood the change was to be binding on all states with the exceptions filed that that they could limit their own licences? Why is Italy different to the rest of the world?
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Yes indeed, why are the Italians behaving in this way? As I am approaching 60 and looking to fly thin Italy I need to know an answer pretty quickly. Strangely, at the moment my problem is that I am flying a French registered aircraft with a third party AOC, yet the French are making waves.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Join the queue!
Licensing: Mr F Woods (Director) Secretariat
Tel:31 23 5679 733/756
Fax:31 23 5621 714
Email:[email protected]
Licensing: Mr F Woods (Director) Secretariat
Tel:31 23 5679 733/756
Fax:31 23 5621 714
Email:[email protected]
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there is more to life than flying. ever wonder why so many pilots are divorced, or have frequent affairs?
60, 65, 70
hey, why not de regulate the cockpit and anyone that shows up that can start her up is good to go.
60, 65, 70
hey, why not de regulate the cockpit and anyone that shows up that can start her up is good to go.
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Here is for all you old farts drooling to stay in your seat after 60. With most airlines the union owns the seniority list, at least in the States. What this essentially means is that even if the regulating authority raises the retirement age the unions could craft an internal agreement determining how this would be handled. For example: You choose to fly past 60 you go the bottom of the seniority list as a co-pilot. Not so attractive now is it? Of course there will be lawsuits if we do this but so what?
My airline has 20% of the seniority list on furlough with NO seat movement in well over 6 years so you can imagine how a captain will be treated in the cockpit once he is 60 years old and one day. Does the word scab ring a bell?
My airline has 20% of the seniority list on furlough with NO seat movement in well over 6 years so you can imagine how a captain will be treated in the cockpit once he is 60 years old and one day. Does the word scab ring a bell?
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age 65
Italy cannot enforce a law to ban other states aircraft from its airspace, landing or overflight, with pilots meeting the ICAO age standard.
It is contrary to their ICAO treaty obligations , if they persist they would be thrown out of ICAO ,they can only file a difference for "I " registered aircraft. They need to get their laws aligned with their treaty obligations, pronto.
It is contrary to their ICAO treaty obligations , if they persist they would be thrown out of ICAO ,they can only file a difference for "I " registered aircraft. They need to get their laws aligned with their treaty obligations, pronto.
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Raas and Mike, I couldn't agree with you more - From a post I made on another thread on 28th November:
"1) the ability of a pilot to fly over 60 legally now does not mean that pilots can legally insist at being paid top dollar at the top of their pay scale in their airline for another 5 years, and
2) I suspect that the rollout to over 60s allowed in many countries will take some time as both local CAAs and airlines decide what they want to do."
India allowed over 60s (subject to 4 medicals a year) before the ICAO ruling because it suited them, every other airline and CAA will be suiting themselves and not you.
"1) the ability of a pilot to fly over 60 legally now does not mean that pilots can legally insist at being paid top dollar at the top of their pay scale in their airline for another 5 years, and
2) I suspect that the rollout to over 60s allowed in many countries will take some time as both local CAAs and airlines decide what they want to do."
India allowed over 60s (subject to 4 medicals a year) before the ICAO ruling because it suited them, every other airline and CAA will be suiting themselves and not you.