Manchester SID
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Joined: Jan 2001
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From: A country that most people dislike but we adore
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Arizona USA
Guys flying the magenta line....well yes, now the ideal way for the 'new generation' types, and if the magenta line leads you WRONG, does ANYONE back this up with raw data or does the 'new type pilot' rely completely on the box? Sounds like ANOTHER case of situational awareness out the window.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 240
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From: London
Went to an 'Enhancing operational awareness' day earlier this year and was gobsmacked by the crusty old LH blokes attitude to raw data flying - why do it when you've got a nice pink string?
I expressed my disbelief, particularly at the statement 'backup instruments don't need to be switched on - the computers never fail on modern aircraft' Well they do. An FMC failed on me one month after I completed line training. The response from the crusties was 'there, there dear. You'll stop being so keen once you've been at this job a few years.'
We flew a Honiley 1Y today using raw data. It never looks like the pink string. Any sensible pilot would ignore it.
I expressed my disbelief, particularly at the statement 'backup instruments don't need to be switched on - the computers never fail on modern aircraft' Well they do. An FMC failed on me one month after I completed line training. The response from the crusties was 'there, there dear. You'll stop being so keen once you've been at this job a few years.'
We flew a Honiley 1Y today using raw data. It never looks like the pink string. Any sensible pilot would ignore it.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 85
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From: London UK
We have a HON 1YM which is a midland only RNAV departure. As Few Cloudy says, this MUST been flown using LNAV (as must the Paris SIDS).
We are only allowed to fly SIDs in LNAV if it is in the NAV database.
Since when has RAW DATA been totally accurate??!! You intercept the HON VOR 157 radial 62 miles from HON!
VOR's are only accurate to +/-5 degrees due their various errors +/- 1 degree site error, 1 degree propagation (scalloping) and 3 degree aircraft equipment errors).
That means you could be up to 2 miles off course for the VOR errors, and 5 miles accounting for the worst allowable aircraft equipment - hardly more accurate than a GPS and DME/DME updated FMS!
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: BmPilot21 ]
We are only allowed to fly SIDs in LNAV if it is in the NAV database.
Since when has RAW DATA been totally accurate??!! You intercept the HON VOR 157 radial 62 miles from HON!
VOR's are only accurate to +/-5 degrees due their various errors +/- 1 degree site error, 1 degree propagation (scalloping) and 3 degree aircraft equipment errors).
That means you could be up to 2 miles off course for the VOR errors, and 5 miles accounting for the worst allowable aircraft equipment - hardly more accurate than a GPS and DME/DME updated FMS!
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: BmPilot21 ]
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 35
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From: Everywhere
Our airline at major noise sensitive airports MAN,GLA,BHX,LGW in fact most UK airports we now operate from Fly SIDS raw data if the following criteria are met.
1. A turn of more than 20 degrees inside five miles.The sid is flown between 200and 220 kias until the completion of the turn with the appropriate flap setting within the speed range.Once the magenta line looks accurate and crosschecks with ground based aids LNAV is engaged.The airline has had massive success in resricting the number of SID track violations.It is being looked at being incorporated to most of our overseas destinations although personally do not see the point in that.!
1. A turn of more than 20 degrees inside five miles.The sid is flown between 200and 220 kias until the completion of the turn with the appropriate flap setting within the speed range.Once the magenta line looks accurate and crosschecks with ground based aids LNAV is engaged.The airline has had massive success in resricting the number of SID track violations.It is being looked at being incorporated to most of our overseas destinations although personally do not see the point in that.!
