Mont St Odile crash latest news....
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Mont St Odile crash latest news....
Hello,
Sorry...it's a free translation from the french newspaper "Le Monde"..
Original is http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...?xtor=RSS-3208
Regards. 
Sorry...it's a free translation from the french newspaper "Le Monde"..
Original is http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,...?xtor=RSS-3208
The correctional court of Colmar released, Tuesday November 7, the six prevented continued after the air crash landing of theSainte-Odile mount, which had made quatre-twenty-seven died in January 1992, while recognizing the whole civil liability for the Airbus companies and Air France. The president of the court Pierre Wagner estimated that prevented - five old frameworks of aeronautics and an air controller - "had not made a criminal offence", or of "characterized fault". It however raised that two among them, the air controller Eric Lammari and the architect of A320 Bernard Ziegler, had made negligences, and judged Airbus and Air France (in the capacity as successor of the Air company Inter)"entirely responsible for the damage undergone by the victims". Bernard Ziegler, in particular marked to have made a "negligence constitutive of a civil wrong" in the design of the ergonomics of the cockpit of A320, qualified this decision of "scandal". "One makes the surest plane of the world and one trails it in front of the courts! Ca predicts a beautiful future for aviation!", it declared at the exit of the audience. As for the air controller Eric Lammari, the court raised that it had made "errors of guidance" but estimated that it returned to an administrative court to determine if this civil servant of State had made a civil wrong. The final amount of the compensations was returned to a later audience fixed at June 5, 2007, but the court right now allocated 500 000 euros of lawyer expenses to the association of active the Echo victims and the naps several thousands with several tens of thousands of euros to certain families. "I RECONCILE MYSELF WITH THE JUSTICE OF MY COUNTRY" Those, although disappointed by the pronounced releases, expressed their satisfaction to see that justice "had just recognized the truth: it is not fate but the responsibilities "which are at the origin of the accident, declared the president of Echo, Alvaro Rendon. "For Echo, it is a great day. The 14 years of procedure are not lost. I reconcile myself with the justice of my country. They died for nothing ", it added. The court went in on this side requisitions made in June, at the end of one month and half of very technical and contradictory debates often. The parquet floor had required in June one year of prison with deferment against Bernard Ziegler, 73 years, former technical director of Airbus industry, Daniel Cauvin, 69 years, associated general ex-director of Air Inter, and Claude Frantzen, 69 years, former chief of the vehicle inspection of the general direction of the civil aviation (DGAC), and nine months with deferment against Eric Lammari, 50 years, air controller with the airport of Strasbourg-Entzheim at the time of the accident. The parquet floor on the other hand had recommended the release of Jacques Rantet, a former production director of Air Inter, and of Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, old general manager of the DGAC. To condemn prevented offences of homicides and wounds involuntary, the court should have made the demonstration of an unquestionable bond of causality between the reproached fault and the damage, and especially of a fault characterized for each one of prevented. The plane, an Airbus A320 d' Air Inter, had been crushed on January 20, 1992 on a snow-covered overturn of theSainte-Odile mount, whereas it prepared to land with the airport of Strasbourg-Entzheim.
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http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...550949,00.html
A French court is due to deliver its verdict on manslaughter charges over a 1992 plane crash that killed 87 people.
The Airbus A320, belonging to Air Inter, crashed on a Lyon-to-Strasbourg flight as it prepared to land.
The six defendants have been on trial since May and face up to two years in prison.
Prosecutors allege the plane, rather than pilot error, was to blame.
A crash inquiry suggested there may have been confusion over controls used to set the speed of descent and that the design of the cockpit may have been flawed.
The victims' families had sued the French government for £9.5m and accused it of dragging its feet over launching a prosecution, but a court threw out the case last month.
:: The defendants are Bernard Ziegler, technical director of Airbus at the time; Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, head of France's civil aviation agency DGAC at the time; Claude Frantzen, head of training at DGAC; two former Air Inter officials; and Eric Lammari, an air traffic controller.
The Airbus A320, belonging to Air Inter, crashed on a Lyon-to-Strasbourg flight as it prepared to land.
The six defendants have been on trial since May and face up to two years in prison.
Prosecutors allege the plane, rather than pilot error, was to blame.
A crash inquiry suggested there may have been confusion over controls used to set the speed of descent and that the design of the cockpit may have been flawed.
The victims' families had sued the French government for £9.5m and accused it of dragging its feet over launching a prosecution, but a court threw out the case last month.
:: The defendants are Bernard Ziegler, technical director of Airbus at the time; Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, head of France's civil aviation agency DGAC at the time; Claude Frantzen, head of training at DGAC; two former Air Inter officials; and Eric Lammari, an air traffic controller.
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Funny how the rest of the world managed to operate Airbuses, and other types, with their systems correctly used, yet suddenly there is this desperate attempt to prove people were negligent who showed no negligence! The drive to prove the deepest pockets negligent unfortunately pins an element of blame onto people who were not at all negligent. It comes from US lawyers obviously working on commission and is now spreading insidiously! I was appalled to see the US lawyer in a Silkair documentary. He was using all his strength to prove there was no suicide element, and i caught him saying 'why should the pilot commit suicide- all he needed to do was to dump the fuel!' (in a 737?). And the jury believed him!
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Funny how the rest of the world managed to operate Airbuses, and other types, with their systems correctly used
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Guess the fact that the GPWS was US made had nothing to do with not installing it. Remember seeing that arrogant pr*ck Ziegler on TV in Blighty telling us viewers how "zee Airboos WEEL NOT ALLOW ZEE PILOT TO CRASH".That would be important to one who crashed his fast jet into a cablecar, predating the more recent American accident, and subsequently became almost unique among ex-mil pilots in France in having his application for a civvy licence declined and being forced to do most of the syllabus ( so former French colleagues lead me to believe).Any decent thinking person would have been haunted by his former comments, I believe his arrogance may have successfully queled that conscience , even when the (British) Airbus test pilot spun a A330 in over Blagnac due to an ALT ACQ misunderstanding after a long day in the (ground ) office.
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Good to see the "architect" of the 320 was absolved of blame, but better yet tht it was looked into in the first place....have to disagree with rainboe...in the states it would have all been laid at the feet of the crew....apparently this crash and others did result in some changes being made to the operation of the aircraft to Airbus' credit...wonder just how many ergonomic failures have resulted in accidents that were conveniently laid at the feet of the pilots...
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Funny how the rest of the world managed to operate Airbuses, and other types, with their systems correctly used
For such an innovative technology, the A-320 certification was allowed only ... 1200 hours !?
18 years ago, one guy spoke out ... and for doing that, he lost everything.
... but he's still fighting : Norbert Jacquet
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Hello,
Sorry for put above this old post ... but that's the latest news about this accident.....
The original press article (in french)
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/articl...3172_3224.html
The Babelfish translation :
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...3172_3224.html
Regards.
Sorry for put above this old post ... but that's the latest news about this accident.....
The original press article (in french)
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/articl...3172_3224.html
The Babelfish translation :
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...3172_3224.html
Regards.
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Ziegler was cleared of manslaughter, but Airbus was civilly liable. Rainboe, this was a criminal prosecution by the State, not civil litigation, so pockets don't come into it.
GPWS was not then compulsory for domestic airlines, and Air Inter didn't install it for cost reasons, not because they believed Ziegler's claims.
My favourite quote of his on the A320: "My cleaning lady could fly it".
GPWS was not then compulsory for domestic airlines, and Air Inter didn't install it for cost reasons, not because they believed Ziegler's claims.
My favourite quote of his on the A320: "My cleaning lady could fly it".
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Any decent person would have been haunted by these remarks after the accidents in Habsheim, Bangalore and of course Strasbourg.
However, we are not dealing with someone decent, merely an arrogant failure working for a morally corrupt state owned company in a nationistically obsessed country.
The results of the 3 Airbus accident enquiries, along with the one of Concorde, could be reasonably accused of failure to emphasise the obvious causes, if they were commercialy inconvenient or embarrasing to the state, manufacturer, or operator concerned.
However, we are not dealing with someone decent, merely an arrogant failure working for a morally corrupt state owned company in a nationistically obsessed country.
The results of the 3 Airbus accident enquiries, along with the one of Concorde, could be reasonably accused of failure to emphasise the obvious causes, if they were commercialy inconvenient or embarrasing to the state, manufacturer, or operator concerned.
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Good God, can hardly believe you actually live in France. What on earth do you do in a country you seem to despise so much ?
Mr Ziegler is a well known personality for someone my generation. He made a name for himself in the 60's for flying his military jet into the Chamonix valley ( where he wasn't allowed to fly ) which led him to severe the Aiguille du Midi cable car's cable which plunged to the ground killing all its occupants. A job truly well done.
Mr Ziegler being the son of a famous Air Force general close to another very famous french general, actually the General himself, got his name cleared in no time and resurfaced years later being the head of the A320 program.
He can rant all he likes, I'm sure his conscience tikles him at night from time to time. Funny no one ever mentioned that.
Mr Ziegler is a well known personality for someone my generation. He made a name for himself in the 60's for flying his military jet into the Chamonix valley ( where he wasn't allowed to fly ) which led him to severe the Aiguille du Midi cable car's cable which plunged to the ground killing all its occupants. A job truly well done.
Mr Ziegler being the son of a famous Air Force general close to another very famous french general, actually the General himself, got his name cleared in no time and resurfaced years later being the head of the A320 program.
He can rant all he likes, I'm sure his conscience tikles him at night from time to time. Funny no one ever mentioned that.
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Originally Posted by Me Myself
...
Mr Ziegler is a well known personality for someone my generation. He made a name for himself in the 60's for flying his military jet into the Chamonix valley
...
He can rant all he likes, I'm sure his conscience tikles him at night from time to time. Funny no one ever mentioned that.
Mr Ziegler is a well known personality for someone my generation. He made a name for himself in the 60's for flying his military jet into the Chamonix valley
...
He can rant all he likes, I'm sure his conscience tikles him at night from time to time. Funny no one ever mentioned that.
French: http://jacno.com/am4900.htm
English (Babelfish): http://fr.babelfish.yahoo.com/transl...TrUrl=Traduire
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Thanks Shrimp.
Actually, the funny thing is that I remember hearing about it 5 or 6 years after it happened as I was too young in 1961, just proving that it remained well anchored in people's minds.
Looking at the paper clip I am amazed to think that this guy can have the blant arrogance to rant against the judicial system, the very same system that saves his a..e all those years ago.
I'm not holding my breath. I don't think he'll actually do time, that's what he deserves though.
Actually, the funny thing is that I remember hearing about it 5 or 6 years after it happened as I was too young in 1961, just proving that it remained well anchored in people's minds.
Looking at the paper clip I am amazed to think that this guy can have the blant arrogance to rant against the judicial system, the very same system that saves his a..e all those years ago.
I'm not holding my breath. I don't think he'll actually do time, that's what he deserves though.
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In the version I was told (by a French ex-military airline pilot) Ziegler's father was present for a ceremony in the valley at the time of the cable-severing, and that, in fact, was why sonny was there, showing off. The cable apparently passed between the wing and a drop tank. Daddy was head of Air France too, at one point. French aviation is very incestuous. One wonders what the little Zieglers are in charge of.
This, from Time in 1961:
"The small, shiny aluminum cable cars swayed in an endless, airy line high above the Alpine stillness of the Vallee Blanche. On either side the passengers could see the granite buttresses and whitened peaks of the Mt. Blanc massif. Far below gleamed broad glaciers and snowy crags.
Then out of the sky hurtled a French air force F-84F jet fighter. It sliced in two the cableway's traction line, losing a wing tank in the glancing blow, then soared out of the valley. The severed cable cracked like a whip. Three of the cars tumbled 500 ft. to earth, killing all six of their passengers. "They fell like ornaments from a Christmas tree," said one shaken observer. In the remaining cars, 81 other passengers dangled helpless in space. Mountain guides worked their way close enough to rope some of the passengers to safety. It took cableway technicians using hand cranks 20 hours to rescue the last car and its passengers.
As French police opened an official inquiry, Jet Pilot Captain Bernard Ziegler could only recall his plane striking "something." "Airplanes don't belong up there. Maybe people don't either," said one survivor, "but planes are as out of place as pagans in a cathedral."
This, from Time in 1961:
"The small, shiny aluminum cable cars swayed in an endless, airy line high above the Alpine stillness of the Vallee Blanche. On either side the passengers could see the granite buttresses and whitened peaks of the Mt. Blanc massif. Far below gleamed broad glaciers and snowy crags.
Then out of the sky hurtled a French air force F-84F jet fighter. It sliced in two the cableway's traction line, losing a wing tank in the glancing blow, then soared out of the valley. The severed cable cracked like a whip. Three of the cars tumbled 500 ft. to earth, killing all six of their passengers. "They fell like ornaments from a Christmas tree," said one shaken observer. In the remaining cars, 81 other passengers dangled helpless in space. Mountain guides worked their way close enough to rope some of the passengers to safety. It took cableway technicians using hand cranks 20 hours to rescue the last car and its passengers.
As French police opened an official inquiry, Jet Pilot Captain Bernard Ziegler could only recall his plane striking "something." "Airplanes don't belong up there. Maybe people don't either," said one survivor, "but planes are as out of place as pagans in a cathedral."
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When posting becomes libel
Everything's fair for Airbus bashers, hey ?
Before we go any further, let's remind people on this thread that, like in quite a few other countries, the French judicial system has three stages : the *première instance* is the normal court, then we have the *cour d'appel*
(appellate court) and then the *tribunal de cassation*, which is the last resort.
At the end of the first instance, Airbus and Air France had been condemned as responsible, Airbus via the ergonomics aspect of this law suit.
Both the plaintiffs -families of the victims of the accident - and AF and AI decided to appeal.
Guess what ? The appellate court found the ergonomics article rather doubtful and decided on relaxing both Ziegler and AI. AF is left alone to pay for the damages and the plaintiffs have lost the reimbursement of their lawyers'fees.
Whether one likes Mr Bernard Ziegler or not is irrelevant here. The court has a verdict and whether the case will be pursued is still unclear. As far as I know, a court decision is to be respected, otherwise one should pack up and leave for other horizons where one doesn't feel like living in a banana republic.
Now for history ; apart from the usual gossip, Mr Henri Ziegler is as much a respectable man as there is. I could understand him being hated from across the Atlantic (after all he is one of the founders of Airbus Industry, along with Felix Kracht and Roger Béteille, and its first CEO ), but he also, among other achievements was the man who, between 1946 and 1954, put back Air France as one of the world players, started the first meaningful Euro-cooperation in aviation matters when he was at the head of Breguet Aviation...a respectable man in all aspects. His defence of Concorde was probably a mistake...
As for *incestuous*, one could have numerous examples of successful family traditions in the field of aviation...Dassault is one. And in this country, nothing prevents a son from following daddy's footsteps, provided he has the brains to do so. Funny how Henri and Bernard's footpaths coincide : Polytechnique (the greatest *school* in France), Ecole Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique (any bigger ?), French Test Pilot School (EPNER)... Can one really blame him from some inflated ego, when he calls airline pilots as being like taxi drivers (he was wrong, I am a 'Bus driver ) ?
As for poor Norbert Jacquet some still quote, I, very sadly, think that all this money spent on letters to just about everybody but God and these lawsuits would be better used for some serious psychological treatment.
(I forgot...he lives in a banana republic where everybody is against him).
Of course, there is the reckless flying and he should have the memory of these lost lives for ever in his mind...That's not for me to judge, there is Someone up there whose job it is...
But we should hold, by the same standards, the one responsible for the Habsheim reckless project, not defend him at all costs.
Before we go any further, let's remind people on this thread that, like in quite a few other countries, the French judicial system has three stages : the *première instance* is the normal court, then we have the *cour d'appel*
(appellate court) and then the *tribunal de cassation*, which is the last resort.
At the end of the first instance, Airbus and Air France had been condemned as responsible, Airbus via the ergonomics aspect of this law suit.
Both the plaintiffs -families of the victims of the accident - and AF and AI decided to appeal.
Guess what ? The appellate court found the ergonomics article rather doubtful and decided on relaxing both Ziegler and AI. AF is left alone to pay for the damages and the plaintiffs have lost the reimbursement of their lawyers'fees.
Whether one likes Mr Bernard Ziegler or not is irrelevant here. The court has a verdict and whether the case will be pursued is still unclear. As far as I know, a court decision is to be respected, otherwise one should pack up and leave for other horizons where one doesn't feel like living in a banana republic.
Now for history ; apart from the usual gossip, Mr Henri Ziegler is as much a respectable man as there is. I could understand him being hated from across the Atlantic (after all he is one of the founders of Airbus Industry, along with Felix Kracht and Roger Béteille, and its first CEO ), but he also, among other achievements was the man who, between 1946 and 1954, put back Air France as one of the world players, started the first meaningful Euro-cooperation in aviation matters when he was at the head of Breguet Aviation...a respectable man in all aspects. His defence of Concorde was probably a mistake...
As for *incestuous*, one could have numerous examples of successful family traditions in the field of aviation...Dassault is one. And in this country, nothing prevents a son from following daddy's footsteps, provided he has the brains to do so. Funny how Henri and Bernard's footpaths coincide : Polytechnique (the greatest *school* in France), Ecole Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique (any bigger ?), French Test Pilot School (EPNER)... Can one really blame him from some inflated ego, when he calls airline pilots as being like taxi drivers (he was wrong, I am a 'Bus driver ) ?
As for poor Norbert Jacquet some still quote, I, very sadly, think that all this money spent on letters to just about everybody but God and these lawsuits would be better used for some serious psychological treatment.
(I forgot...he lives in a banana republic where everybody is against him).
Of course, there is the reckless flying and he should have the memory of these lost lives for ever in his mind...That's not for me to judge, there is Someone up there whose job it is...
But we should hold, by the same standards, the one responsible for the Habsheim reckless project, not defend him at all costs.
Last edited by Lemurian; 25th Mar 2008 at 15:11. Reason: paragraph added
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Originally Posted by Lemurian
As for poor Norbert Jacquet some still quote, I, very sadly, think that all this money spent on letters to just about everybody but God and these lawsuits would be better used for some serious psychological treatment.
"Poor Norbert Jacquet" as he said, or... poor Lemurian?!
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Lemurian
Are you the ghost from Xmas past ???
You are truly muddling the waters here.
Henri Ziegler may have been a great resistant and allow me to ask: Who cares ??????????? totally irrelevant in this post and I'm not reaching for my hankie.
That he rebuilt AF ?? Great, that's just where I happen to work. So thanks.
Airbus basher ??? Flew the damn thing, loved every minute of it. Great aircraft .
Bernard Ziegler however is another matter. The prosecutor is after his toushy like the victim's families and allow me to say rightly so cuz, like it or not he was the head of the program. Who else is to be held accountable ?? The tooth fairy ?? The aircraft that crashed then was nothing like the one we fly today and it is exactly because of elite school arrogance that it happened. How many compagnies have these people run " kaputt " in France ?? Remember Crédit Lyonnais ???. Ouch !!
The fact that he got off the hook, thanks to Daddy , after having KILLLED 6 people is also undisputable and allow to say quite sickening. Had he been John Dough's son he would have been left to rot. So do not tell me about banana republic when it is exactly where we live.
As to those directly responsible for the Habsheim crash, they did pay the price and a heavy one at that. Losing job, reputation and terminal illness for one of them. No sweet thing such as Airbus where daddy gets you a job.
How convenient to leave it all to the Great Maker of All Things somewhere in the sky. Actually, it's kinda sweet.
Are you the ghost from Xmas past ???
You are truly muddling the waters here.
Henri Ziegler may have been a great resistant and allow me to ask: Who cares ??????????? totally irrelevant in this post and I'm not reaching for my hankie.
That he rebuilt AF ?? Great, that's just where I happen to work. So thanks.
Airbus basher ??? Flew the damn thing, loved every minute of it. Great aircraft .
Bernard Ziegler however is another matter. The prosecutor is after his toushy like the victim's families and allow me to say rightly so cuz, like it or not he was the head of the program. Who else is to be held accountable ?? The tooth fairy ?? The aircraft that crashed then was nothing like the one we fly today and it is exactly because of elite school arrogance that it happened. How many compagnies have these people run " kaputt " in France ?? Remember Crédit Lyonnais ???. Ouch !!
The fact that he got off the hook, thanks to Daddy , after having KILLLED 6 people is also undisputable and allow to say quite sickening. Had he been John Dough's son he would have been left to rot. So do not tell me about banana republic when it is exactly where we live.
As to those directly responsible for the Habsheim crash, they did pay the price and a heavy one at that. Losing job, reputation and terminal illness for one of them. No sweet thing such as Airbus where daddy gets you a job.
How convenient to leave it all to the Great Maker of All Things somewhere in the sky. Actually, it's kinda sweet.
Last edited by Me Myself; 25th Mar 2008 at 19:40.
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Quote : "Lemurian, living in Paris, wants to talk about Norbert Jacquet"
1/- Is living in Paris a crime ?
2/-I don't want to talk about N.J., I just commented on the fact that some of you quoted him .
Now, and it's the last time I will comment on this subject, no one has ever uttered any doubt on his analytical brilliance (that was in 1989 ).The paper you cite dates in 2000, and already one could read :
..."there exist some paranoid traits characterised by a self over-estimation, a tendency for a certain psychic rigidity, a revendication and a tenacious and combative sense of his own rights and the designation of his persecutors...these traits are due more to a context than a pathology..."
I say again, that was written eight years ago, before his situation really got worse.
I just think sad the fact that one person could antagonise at the same time
-his union, the SNPL
-his airline
-several ministers and with them the whole French administration
-the judicial institution
-the Lawyers guild
-the European court of Justice of Human Rights.
-Eurocockpit (french equivalent of Prune one cannot in any way accuse of collusion with either AF or AI, aka *Radio coco*}.
-the Media as a whole...
I probably forgot a few.
1/- Is living in Paris a crime ?
2/-I don't want to talk about N.J., I just commented on the fact that some of you quoted him .
Now, and it's the last time I will comment on this subject, no one has ever uttered any doubt on his analytical brilliance (that was in 1989 ).The paper you cite dates in 2000, and already one could read :
..."there exist some paranoid traits characterised by a self over-estimation, a tendency for a certain psychic rigidity, a revendication and a tenacious and combative sense of his own rights and the designation of his persecutors...these traits are due more to a context than a pathology..."
I say again, that was written eight years ago, before his situation really got worse.
I just think sad the fact that one person could antagonise at the same time
-his union, the SNPL
-his airline
-several ministers and with them the whole French administration
-the judicial institution
-the Lawyers guild
-the European court of Justice of Human Rights.
-Eurocockpit (french equivalent of Prune one cannot in any way accuse of collusion with either AF or AI, aka *Radio coco*}.
-the Media as a whole...
I probably forgot a few.
Last edited by Lemurian; 26th Mar 2008 at 11:28. Reason: clarity