Virgin 'low fuel' MAYDAY
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by this statement.
Are you suggesting it was ATC or their company at their nominated alternate that was too busy?
Are you suggesting it was ATC or their company at their nominated alternate that was too busy?
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FW
- I don't think there has been an AIC, but I'm pretty sure it is 'not advised', a fact which certain companies choose to ignore.
- the AIC clearly says this 'advising' is not going to happen, and 20 minutes is 'the norm' - to be expected.
- I was certainly told on more than one occasion by BA I was NOT to use the planned alternate (LHR) when I enquired - in the hold at LGW.
Where is the AIC forbidding the use of LHR as an alt. for LGW and vice-versa? Maybe there should be one...
and there was a 10min+ delay at destination (not advised previously).
On re-reading it maybe they meant something else...
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
If this was a deliberate ploy to get ahead of the queue, then it is clearly despicable and indefensible, but those who need to take a minute from polishing their halo's might want to remind themsleves of the other side of the coin, when positive and decisive action is not taken. Admittedly this was as much about language as airmanship, but 73 people never got to discuss this guys decision in any kind of forum.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X22401&key=1
and some slightly disturbing stuff here as well:
http://planecrashinfo.com/cvr900125.htm
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X22401&key=1
and some slightly disturbing stuff here as well:
http://planecrashinfo.com/cvr900125.htm
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I would disagree! A 'Div' should be planned as best a possible, to ensure that the a/c will not be below legal fuel minimums on arrival. I would agree that a Pan on diversion might be 'normal', but a Mayday indicates significant danger and should only crop up with a last minute 'unexpected' diversion.
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I was the LHR south director just before 07:00 this morning. I was not aware of any ATC discussion about delays, which I would expect to be if a possible div from KK was in the offing.
Just to be clear, nobody in ATC is going to tell any Captain that he cannot div to an airfield. We would tell him the expected delay and then wait for HIS decision. If there is a company policy not to use a particular airfield as an alternate then what is the purpose of specifying it as an alternate on the FP? And that being the case, one must arrive at the LL/KK holds with either 20 minutes fuel if "no delay" has been issued or sufficient fuel to get to the actual alternate.
Both the TC and LACC area sectors know what delay is being promulgated at Heathrow/Gatwick at any time; there is no reason why anybody in doubt about their fuel satus could not find out the anticipated delay long before they get here.
Everybody knows what Heathrow is like early in the morning. I cannot imagine why anybody planning to use Heathrow at that time (even as an alternate) wouldn't factor that into their fuel plan. Surely, there must be something we don't know.
.4
Just to be clear, nobody in ATC is going to tell any Captain that he cannot div to an airfield. We would tell him the expected delay and then wait for HIS decision. If there is a company policy not to use a particular airfield as an alternate then what is the purpose of specifying it as an alternate on the FP? And that being the case, one must arrive at the LL/KK holds with either 20 minutes fuel if "no delay" has been issued or sufficient fuel to get to the actual alternate.
Both the TC and LACC area sectors know what delay is being promulgated at Heathrow/Gatwick at any time; there is no reason why anybody in doubt about their fuel satus could not find out the anticipated delay long before they get here.
Everybody knows what Heathrow is like early in the morning. I cannot imagine why anybody planning to use Heathrow at that time (even as an alternate) wouldn't factor that into their fuel plan. Surely, there must be something we don't know..4
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May I proffer the following info to deter any further "speculation" or verbiage such as "attempting to lynch the Virgin pilots" (my oh my!!!).
(Proper Pilots need not read, save your time!)
An aircraft must be and is, dispatched in accordance with it's Regulatory Authority Rules and Regs in terms of Fuel Load requirements for the flight, dependant upon the a/c weight and weather conditions. A Flight Plan will be produced some hours before the scheduled departure time, based upon an ESTIMATED Zero Fuel Weight (ZFW) which will show the required Ramp Fuel.
Once the Crew receive confirmation of the ACTUAL ZFW they will make appropriate adjustments to the Flt plan fuel figures to reflect fuel requirements in accordance with the new ZFW.
The Required fuel includes Contingency Fuel to account for possibly getting less favourable wind components en-route, lower levels than planned, or need for en-route ant-icing.
The Flight Deck Crew have the option of adding extra fuel should they consider circumstance or their feelings through previous experience warrant extra uplift.
However, Virgin have a Fuel Policy which will Dispatch an aircraft with Fuel Requirements IN EXCESS of JAR-OPS reqirements and based on in-house historical data (dependant on arrival times and knowing that VS XXX will generally go twice round the Hold) will add in additional fuel on top of JAR-OPS requirements.
I make a separate para to state that many other reputable Airlines have a similar if not identical procedure.
The point I'm coming to. is that once that a/c is dispatched, it is up to the crew to MANAGE the fuel that they have in order to get their pax to their Destination. Towards that aim, Airmanship, knowledge of the Company Fuel Policy, Customer satisfaction etc., all come into play. But NOTHING will compromise SAFETY. That is Paramount I know, amongst all VS pilots, and am 99% certain, of pilots in major Airlines throughout the world.
Sh*t happens as they say, and who knows at this stage, what accumulation of events led to the declaration of a "Mayday".
Final Reserve is 30 Mins Holding based on Fuel Flow at 1500ft above Alternate airfield. JAR-Ops state that if the a/c is expected to land with less than Final Reserve then ATC MUST be informed and a PAN call initiated. Once the Endurance reduces to 20 mins then a Mayday must be declared......would YOU wait until those fuel states were reached before you jumped the queque?
Maybe a bit verbose but just wanted to dispel any worries for the travelling public of the likelihood of any a/c running out of fuel over the skies of UK.
(Proper Pilots need not read, save your time!)
An aircraft must be and is, dispatched in accordance with it's Regulatory Authority Rules and Regs in terms of Fuel Load requirements for the flight, dependant upon the a/c weight and weather conditions. A Flight Plan will be produced some hours before the scheduled departure time, based upon an ESTIMATED Zero Fuel Weight (ZFW) which will show the required Ramp Fuel.
Once the Crew receive confirmation of the ACTUAL ZFW they will make appropriate adjustments to the Flt plan fuel figures to reflect fuel requirements in accordance with the new ZFW.
The Required fuel includes Contingency Fuel to account for possibly getting less favourable wind components en-route, lower levels than planned, or need for en-route ant-icing.
The Flight Deck Crew have the option of adding extra fuel should they consider circumstance or their feelings through previous experience warrant extra uplift.
However, Virgin have a Fuel Policy which will Dispatch an aircraft with Fuel Requirements IN EXCESS of JAR-OPS reqirements and based on in-house historical data (dependant on arrival times and knowing that VS XXX will generally go twice round the Hold) will add in additional fuel on top of JAR-OPS requirements.
I make a separate para to state that many other reputable Airlines have a similar if not identical procedure.
The point I'm coming to. is that once that a/c is dispatched, it is up to the crew to MANAGE the fuel that they have in order to get their pax to their Destination. Towards that aim, Airmanship, knowledge of the Company Fuel Policy, Customer satisfaction etc., all come into play. But NOTHING will compromise SAFETY. That is Paramount I know, amongst all VS pilots, and am 99% certain, of pilots in major Airlines throughout the world.
Sh*t happens as they say, and who knows at this stage, what accumulation of events led to the declaration of a "Mayday".
Final Reserve is 30 Mins Holding based on Fuel Flow at 1500ft above Alternate airfield. JAR-Ops state that if the a/c is expected to land with less than Final Reserve then ATC MUST be informed and a PAN call initiated. Once the Endurance reduces to 20 mins then a Mayday must be declared......would YOU wait until those fuel states were reached before you jumped the queque?
Maybe a bit verbose but just wanted to dispel any worries for the travelling public of the likelihood of any a/c running out of fuel over the skies of UK.
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point 4 (or as some would have it, dayseemal fower!
)
A point of information:
Quote
Both the TC and LACC area sectors know what delay is being promulgated at Heathrow/Gatwick at any time;
Unquote
Not quite true. At LACC, it is "Less than 20 mins" on our information system until or unless one or all of the following happens:
The delays reach 20 mins and the TC Traffic Manager publishes the EATs on SIS;
The LAS keeps an eye on the 'other' delay screen only available to us which shows actual ETA and time of leaving stacks and tell the sector;
The controller winds out the radar and takes a look at the stacks and assesses an approximate delay;
The delays reduce through 20 mins when they EAT page shows delays less than 20 mins until the last one which HAD 20 mins or more has gone and the Traffic Manager gets bored (joke).
The stock reply from those who are not on the ball is : "Delay less than 20 mins", which could mean anything from 19.5 mins to 0 mins. Good, eh?
)A point of information:
Quote
Both the TC and LACC area sectors know what delay is being promulgated at Heathrow/Gatwick at any time;
Unquote
Not quite true. At LACC, it is "Less than 20 mins" on our information system until or unless one or all of the following happens:
The delays reach 20 mins and the TC Traffic Manager publishes the EATs on SIS;
The LAS keeps an eye on the 'other' delay screen only available to us which shows actual ETA and time of leaving stacks and tell the sector;
The controller winds out the radar and takes a look at the stacks and assesses an approximate delay;
The delays reduce through 20 mins when they EAT page shows delays less than 20 mins until the last one which HAD 20 mins or more has gone and the Traffic Manager gets bored (joke).
The stock reply from those who are not on the ball is : "Delay less than 20 mins", which could mean anything from 19.5 mins to 0 mins. Good, eh?
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EITS
Thanks, I wasn't aware the information was presented to you like that; nonetheless, you can phone for the predicted delay if asked?
I am considering the crew's mind set. They know they are not awash with fuel and so presumably their first quesiton to LACC is "what are the delays for Gatwick"? In this case, they would be told they are less than 20 minutes and so would still be okay if carrying an allowance for the normal arrival delays at 07:00. The fact that they weren't able to accept the arrival delay indicates that either they didn't carry an allowance for it or something happened en-route (outside their control) that burnt it off.
My point is that, knowing what the LTMA airports are like, surely, as soon as you know you are going to arrive at WILLO without an ability to accept any delay you have to do something about it? My question is, roughly where is the point at which the crew would have known that? It is, presumably, well before reaching the LTMA. Crickey, we used to get BA on the phone 15 minutes after the Concorde was airborne from Barbados saying 'he is going to be tight, how's it looking?'
I am having difficulty understanding how one can arrive at WILLO so tight on fuel that one has to declare a MAYDAY, having passed Shannon, Dublin, Cardiff, Brize etc. Can somebody enlighten me?
.4
Thanks, I wasn't aware the information was presented to you like that; nonetheless, you can phone for the predicted delay if asked?
I am considering the crew's mind set. They know they are not awash with fuel and so presumably their first quesiton to LACC is "what are the delays for Gatwick"? In this case, they would be told they are less than 20 minutes and so would still be okay if carrying an allowance for the normal arrival delays at 07:00. The fact that they weren't able to accept the arrival delay indicates that either they didn't carry an allowance for it or something happened en-route (outside their control) that burnt it off.
My point is that, knowing what the LTMA airports are like, surely, as soon as you know you are going to arrive at WILLO without an ability to accept any delay you have to do something about it? My question is, roughly where is the point at which the crew would have known that? It is, presumably, well before reaching the LTMA. Crickey, we used to get BA on the phone 15 minutes after the Concorde was airborne from Barbados saying 'he is going to be tight, how's it looking?'
I am having difficulty understanding how one can arrive at WILLO so tight on fuel that one has to declare a MAYDAY, having passed Shannon, Dublin, Cardiff, Brize etc. Can somebody enlighten me?
.4
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Modern FMCs, if correctly programmed with cruise levels and accurate winds, will indicate the 'shortage' at a very early stage. 5-6 hours notice is not unusual.
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Thanks BOAC; this is what I am finding difficult. Even if you only knew 1 hour in advance that you won't have any holding fuel on arrival at WILLO, wouldn't that be ample time to arrange a div to Cardiff etc?
.4
.4
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It's has to be a 'British' thing...this business of steaming around with min fuel, then (ignoring all AIM's about having the min 20 minutes holding available, upon arrival) finding themselves in rather deep doggie do-do.
Both Malaysian and Qantas in years past found themselves in a similar state, after very long sectors from Asia, yet failed to divert, after having overflown dozens of possible diversion airports for re-fueling, and the UKCAA told 'em...shape up, or don't fly to the UK any longer.
Yet, British airlines seem to follow the 'absolute min fuel' option on numerous occasions, and of course, are promptly found out.
We await the UKCAA investigation.
I suspect however, that it will all be conveniently swept under the rug, as yet again, a British carrier is short of fuel, inbound to the London TMA.
For shame...yet again.
Both Malaysian and Qantas in years past found themselves in a similar state, after very long sectors from Asia, yet failed to divert, after having overflown dozens of possible diversion airports for re-fueling, and the UKCAA told 'em...shape up, or don't fly to the UK any longer.
Yet, British airlines seem to follow the 'absolute min fuel' option on numerous occasions, and of course, are promptly found out.
We await the UKCAA investigation.
I suspect however, that it will all be conveniently swept under the rug, as yet again, a British carrier is short of fuel, inbound to the London TMA.
For shame...yet again.
For 120.4's peace of mind, I have never found myself in such a fuel predicament in the last 20 years of flying into LHR/LGW because I have taken care to arrive with "sufficient" fuel every time. I have had my battles along the way - Captains querying my excess fuel, then co-pilot's doing the same but I have been proved right on so many occasions I now trust my own judgement.
The trick is flexibility. Look at the difference in seasonal weather, traffic flows and time of arrival. We are entering Autumn in the UK, not referred to as a time of "mists and mellow fruitfulness" for nothing. If I see a TAF for London area airports in terms of "PROB 30 2000m BR " for my early AM arrival I take that to mean RVR450m when I actually get there! Don't believe me? Happens every year about this time without fail. Result - lot's of panic from guys with no fuel and me sat on at least an hours holding fuel and diversion to MAN ('cos thats where my car is parked
) with time for another breakfast.....
The trick is flexibility. Look at the difference in seasonal weather, traffic flows and time of arrival. We are entering Autumn in the UK, not referred to as a time of "mists and mellow fruitfulness" for nothing. If I see a TAF for London area airports in terms of "PROB 30 2000m BR " for my early AM arrival I take that to mean RVR450m when I actually get there! Don't believe me? Happens every year about this time without fail. Result - lot's of panic from guys with no fuel and me sat on at least an hours holding fuel and diversion to MAN ('cos thats where my car is parked
) with time for another breakfast.....
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PPRuNe Radar ...en route JNB-LHR: "...diverted in to Paris Orly for fuel ... then picked up 3 hours on the ground waiting for a slot back in to LHR.
I would be having a "duty time" problem with that...
I would be having a "duty time" problem with that...
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Not enough data !
Having found myself short of fuel in the London TMA for reasons that were out of my control (very bad WX forcast & techincal failure) I know how uncomfotable it is to be at the sharp end of this sort of thing.
I was only about 2 Min from making the Mayday call (due company policy) when the wheels hit the ground following a diversion.
I can only speculate what the PPrune pages would have been saying had I made that call, but I think that more than one of the posts from the comfort of an armchair would have been calling me an idiot for the course of action that I took.
I don't have enough data to comment on this inccident but I suspect that the guys took the correct course of action and the whole thing is a storm in a tea cup................ but that is not what some on an internet forum want!!
I was only about 2 Min from making the Mayday call (due company policy) when the wheels hit the ground following a diversion.
I can only speculate what the PPrune pages would have been saying had I made that call, but I think that more than one of the posts from the comfort of an armchair would have been calling me an idiot for the course of action that I took.
I don't have enough data to comment on this inccident but I suspect that the guys took the correct course of action and the whole thing is a storm in a tea cup................ but that is not what some on an internet forum want!!
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Maybe they thought they would just about have enough because they thought there would be no holding.
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If there is a company policy not to use a particular airfield as an alternate then what is the purpose of specifying it as an alternate on the FP?
My company (BA) regularly plans KK as an alternate for LL but there's no way they want us to go there! As our American cousins say, 'go figure'
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Omni 737:
yes, could be.
Overstress:
In the event of an R/T failure what should ATC expect the Captain to do? How could we possibly begin to plan for your subsquent actions? In such a busy TMA environment that seems most unwise.
.4
yes, could be.
Overstress:
In the event of an R/T failure what should ATC expect the Captain to do? How could we possibly begin to plan for your subsquent actions? In such a busy TMA environment that seems most unwise.
.4
Last edited by 120.4; 9th Oct 2006 at 07:58. Reason: Overstress' post
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Minimum Fuel - What's That?
DAYSLEEPER -
The theory behind this (AFAIR) is that in a cut throat business we are all carrying minimum fuel anyhow and if one operator thought that it could load a few kilos less and then cry priority every time it came in it would gain an unfair commercial advantage.
The theory behind this (AFAIR) is that in a cut throat business we are all carrying minimum fuel anyhow and if one operator thought that it could load a few kilos less and then cry priority every time it came in it would gain an unfair commercial advantage.
