Incident at EGPC/EGPD
Join Date: Nov 2003
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A few points from an engineer's perspective:
"Thought the idea of having 3 greens would indicate the gear was down and LOCKED"
Isn't this statement exactly what Human Factors and CRM is all about - this says to me the crew saw what they wanted/expected to see.
"Surely they cannot of had 3 greens or even checked to see if they had 3 greens if the u/carriage was not down and locked."
Got to agree 100% with this comment. You COULD have all three greens with the gears retracted but the odds on having the combination of hidden failures in the gear positioning indicating system are up there with winning the Euro Millions Lotto. Failure risk analysis of systems at the design stage would have looked at this as an almost impossible occurance. Really, honestly, the odds are astronomic on the humungous scale.
"Is the CVR a 30 minute loop on the aircraft in question?"
I'd bet my pension on it. It is only on very recently certified aircraft that solid state 2hr CVR's are being installed. If the a/c in question is an Eastern J31/32 then nah, no chance. Haven't heard of any airline lashing the cash to buy new CVR's and mod a/c to take them when it is not mandated by the CAA/FAA (same as most other mods these days).
"Do you think the crew could have opened the emergency hydraulics panel and attached the pump handle and then maybe manually pumped the gear down before they landed at ABZ."
Yep, I'm sure they could have. IMHO though, I think the gear probably extended in the normal fashion assuming there was no damage to the extend/retract system from the alleged wheels up landing or belly scrape. If it didn't extend normally then I'm sure the free falled or pumped it down (gear was down at ABZ, wasn't it).
Disclaimer: Since this is the Rumour and News forum I feel free to express my opinion in a blame free environment and all I have written above is based on the sage posts of others more informed and in the know than me. Flame away to your hearts content.
"Thought the idea of having 3 greens would indicate the gear was down and LOCKED"
Isn't this statement exactly what Human Factors and CRM is all about - this says to me the crew saw what they wanted/expected to see.
"Surely they cannot of had 3 greens or even checked to see if they had 3 greens if the u/carriage was not down and locked."
Got to agree 100% with this comment. You COULD have all three greens with the gears retracted but the odds on having the combination of hidden failures in the gear positioning indicating system are up there with winning the Euro Millions Lotto. Failure risk analysis of systems at the design stage would have looked at this as an almost impossible occurance. Really, honestly, the odds are astronomic on the humungous scale.
"Is the CVR a 30 minute loop on the aircraft in question?"
I'd bet my pension on it. It is only on very recently certified aircraft that solid state 2hr CVR's are being installed. If the a/c in question is an Eastern J31/32 then nah, no chance. Haven't heard of any airline lashing the cash to buy new CVR's and mod a/c to take them when it is not mandated by the CAA/FAA (same as most other mods these days).
"Do you think the crew could have opened the emergency hydraulics panel and attached the pump handle and then maybe manually pumped the gear down before they landed at ABZ."
Yep, I'm sure they could have. IMHO though, I think the gear probably extended in the normal fashion assuming there was no damage to the extend/retract system from the alleged wheels up landing or belly scrape. If it didn't extend normally then I'm sure the free falled or pumped it down (gear was down at ABZ, wasn't it).
Disclaimer: Since this is the Rumour and News forum I feel free to express my opinion in a blame free environment and all I have written above is based on the sage posts of others more informed and in the know than me. Flame away to your hearts content.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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The only reason I can think of for diverting to ABZ in this case is that the crew really thought they had a gear problem. However, Wick is more than long enough and has the required fire cover to cope with such a situation so why was ABZ necessary? Eng cover maybe?
I've also heard that there is a fault/feature/set of circumstances on the Jetstream that can result in three greens without the gear being down, is this correct?
Either way, I'm still struggling to comprehend how the crew could not have felt the prop strike on the runway. And if they had, why cross the water to ABZ with a damaged prop, and with it still running!
I've also heard that there is a fault/feature/set of circumstances on the Jetstream that can result in three greens without the gear being down, is this correct?
Either way, I'm still struggling to comprehend how the crew could not have felt the prop strike on the runway. And if they had, why cross the water to ABZ with a damaged prop, and with it still running!
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Li88 electra Wheels up at Shannon, 01 April 1999.
Just noticed renewed interest in L188 Electra (N285F), landing at Shannon with gear up - and there really are some inaccuracies being postolated on the pprune pages! 
How do I know? 'Cos I was one of the six people on board that morning, so rudely wakened when the normal landing noises became suddenly much louder and there was suddenly a whole lot more activity on the flight deck than usual...
Yes, it was a Renown a/c, leased to Channex.
No, it was not an all-American crew - I was the Channex Ground engineer flying with the a/c from CGN, via DUB to SNN on a misty Monday morning.
Yes, the drivers forgot to put the sticky-downie bits in the correct position for landing.
Yes, the #2 prop hit the ground first, followed very shortly afterwards by the #3 - but much harder. So much so that the prop, gearbox and half the engine parted company with its nacelle and ended up in a farmer's field. In so doing, the shattered #3 prop passed parts of itself through the nearby #4 and the fuselage - severing most of the underfloor cable looms in the process and providing an instant outflow valve...
Though our intrepid drivers didn't know that at the time, and promptly took to the air on (effectively), one good engine.
I could go on, but not here (it gets more exciting/terrifying, depending on where one was sitting that day...), though if anyone really wants to know the whole amazing story...wait for the book!
Suffice to say, were it not for a single strand of electric string, I wouldn't be writing this now.
Anon,
ReliablEngine
How do I know? 'Cos I was one of the six people on board that morning, so rudely wakened when the normal landing noises became suddenly much louder and there was suddenly a whole lot more activity on the flight deck than usual...
Yes, it was a Renown a/c, leased to Channex.
No, it was not an all-American crew - I was the Channex Ground engineer flying with the a/c from CGN, via DUB to SNN on a misty Monday morning.
Yes, the drivers forgot to put the sticky-downie bits in the correct position for landing.
Yes, the #2 prop hit the ground first, followed very shortly afterwards by the #3 - but much harder. So much so that the prop, gearbox and half the engine parted company with its nacelle and ended up in a farmer's field. In so doing, the shattered #3 prop passed parts of itself through the nearby #4 and the fuselage - severing most of the underfloor cable looms in the process and providing an instant outflow valve...
Though our intrepid drivers didn't know that at the time, and promptly took to the air on (effectively), one good engine.
I could go on, but not here (it gets more exciting/terrifying, depending on where one was sitting that day...), though if anyone really wants to know the whole amazing story...wait for the book!
Suffice to say, were it not for a single strand of electric string, I wouldn't be writing this now.
Anon,
ReliablEngine
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Turns out the report on this incident has just come out. It is referenced in the AAIB Bulletin for February 2008.
Aircraft Accident Report Number 3/2008
PBL
Aircraft Accident Report Number 3/2008
PBL
