BA A320 smoke & evac at BRU
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BA A320 smoke & evac at BRU
A320 standing immobilised with all doors open and surrounded by multiple emergency and firebrigade trucks on RWY 25R.
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I watched and listened to this from the holding point. The BA crew were the coolest cucumbers on the block.
However there is a definite case for it to be mandatory for the fire service to have steps on a fire engine chassis like many of the German airports. In the 5 minutes or so when the aircraft was sat there waiting for inspection everyone could have been out without the risks that come from using the slides.
Indeed the crew were - rightly - very reluctant to evacuate and never got a clear answer from the fire service to the question "is there a fire" simply a reply "we recommend you evacuate."
To summarise - based purely on the RT I thought the BA chaps were fantastic.
However there is a definite case for it to be mandatory for the fire service to have steps on a fire engine chassis like many of the German airports. In the 5 minutes or so when the aircraft was sat there waiting for inspection everyone could have been out without the risks that come from using the slides.
Indeed the crew were - rightly - very reluctant to evacuate and never got a clear answer from the fire service to the question "is there a fire" simply a reply "we recommend you evacuate."
To summarise - based purely on the RT I thought the BA chaps were fantastic.
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How difficult is it to say "We see flames/smoke or we do not see flames/smoke"
I would think that evacuating an A320 purely because there's a (possibly/probably false) cargo smoke warning, without evidence of fire/smoke AND with fire brigade present around the A/C is not a good idea.
Of course I do not know any captain, myself included, that would NOT evacuate after the fire brigade recommends to do so.
Question @daysleeper: did you see any evidence of fire or smoke? If there wasn't, I would be very interested to know why the fire brigade issued this recommendation?
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Erasmus
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BA 744 had a small cargo fire just out of Sydney a couple of years ago; returned, o/w landing and evac'ed via stairs;
QF 330 diverted to Kansai not long ago with a fire warning; evac'ed on slides apparently after ATC reported smoke on touchdown. One punter broke something on the way down the slide and this triggered a criminal investigation against the skipper.
So... does a pilot risk his own prosecution and wait for the 'safe' evac method, or just try to get everyone off tout-de-suite and maybe risk copping a criminal charge?
Maybe the answer is to have stairs on fire trucks in those places which will go after the crew personally if someone breaks an ankle on the slide, even after some nong has punctured it with a high heel a la QF 744 at Sydney... (that was an undercarriage fire, but goes to the issue of evac using slides or ground eqpt - that a/c already had the aerobridge in position when the evac was ordered).
Relevant ATSB reports:
BA incident at Sydney:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200203671.aspx
QF A330 at Kansai:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200504074.aspx
QF 747 at Sydney:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200302980.aspx
Well done to the Speedbird crew for getting everyone off.
QF 330 diverted to Kansai not long ago with a fire warning; evac'ed on slides apparently after ATC reported smoke on touchdown. One punter broke something on the way down the slide and this triggered a criminal investigation against the skipper.
So... does a pilot risk his own prosecution and wait for the 'safe' evac method, or just try to get everyone off tout-de-suite and maybe risk copping a criminal charge?
Maybe the answer is to have stairs on fire trucks in those places which will go after the crew personally if someone breaks an ankle on the slide, even after some nong has punctured it with a high heel a la QF 744 at Sydney... (that was an undercarriage fire, but goes to the issue of evac using slides or ground eqpt - that a/c already had the aerobridge in position when the evac was ordered).
Relevant ATSB reports:
BA incident at Sydney:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200203671.aspx
QF A330 at Kansai:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200504074.aspx
QF 747 at Sydney:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200302980.aspx
Well done to the Speedbird crew for getting everyone off.
Last edited by Taildragger67; 11th Sep 2006 at 10:11.
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singcargo 74 v air maroc 73 at BRU
In the resulting delay caused by the BA incident, the airport was busy with taxying a/c. 25R had been re-opened and at about 2010z an air maroc 737 reported being hit by a singcargo 747. The 73 was stationary waiting in line for B4 25R whilst the 74 had been cleared to use F5 then W4 for the full length. Emergency svc inspections were carried out again and we saw emergency services carrying 6ft by 3ft piece of material back to their vehicle. We didn't see any damage to the 73. It was dark though and we were 30m away.
The singcargo was simultaneously having their own inspection carried out. We were eventually cleared to use 25R via B3, so I have no idea as to the outcome or if indeed it WAS a collision and not jet blast fealt by the 73 as the 74 passed behind.
dw
The singcargo was simultaneously having their own inspection carried out. We were eventually cleared to use 25R via B3, so I have no idea as to the outcome or if indeed it WAS a collision and not jet blast fealt by the 73 as the 74 passed behind.
dw
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I was there as well yesterday evening, watching it all from pier A.
What amazes me is the time it took to decide to evacuate the pax, I would say between 15 and 20 minutes, if not more.
Fire brigade was around the acft immediately after landing, lots of them, but the situation was just idle for sooo long.
Airbus says in the expanded checklist for cargo smoke, at least for the 330, not to have the cargo doors open till all pax evacuated, so it is very difficult for the fire brigade to confirm any fire or smoke.
I was too far, and on the wrong side to see it, but it looked like fire brigade did in fact open the aft cargo hold.
I had this emergency in the sim a year ago, and what we did was to have stairs brought to the acft to have pax disembarked rapidly, but without having to inflate the slides and call for an emergency evac, with all the risks it represents.
Yesterday they could have done the same, although I cannot judge because maybe that's what they wanted but it was refused by the aiport autorithy.
Another thing that struck me is that after the evac the pax were left quite close to the acft, and no bus was immediately available to take them away.
What amazes me is the time it took to decide to evacuate the pax, I would say between 15 and 20 minutes, if not more.
Fire brigade was around the acft immediately after landing, lots of them, but the situation was just idle for sooo long.
Airbus says in the expanded checklist for cargo smoke, at least for the 330, not to have the cargo doors open till all pax evacuated, so it is very difficult for the fire brigade to confirm any fire or smoke.
I was too far, and on the wrong side to see it, but it looked like fire brigade did in fact open the aft cargo hold.
I had this emergency in the sim a year ago, and what we did was to have stairs brought to the acft to have pax disembarked rapidly, but without having to inflate the slides and call for an emergency evac, with all the risks it represents.
Yesterday they could have done the same, although I cannot judge because maybe that's what they wanted but it was refused by the aiport autorithy.
Another thing that struck me is that after the evac the pax were left quite close to the acft, and no bus was immediately available to take them away.
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I wouldn't mind flying with those pilots
Professional and calm. Appart from the initial call all was like nothing special was going on.
As soon as they started the descend the fire warning stopped maybe that can be an indication why the evacuation was not immediate.
As soon as they started the descend the fire warning stopped maybe that can be an indication why the evacuation was not immediate.
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I am passing no judgement on occurances in this incident.
If you do ask the fire brigade if there are any signs of fire or smoke and they say that there isn't you are still none the wiser as to whether you have a fire or not.
So what are you going to do, evacuate or wait for steps with the chance of burning?
It is a bit like doing a tower fly by with gear trouble, and the tell you that the gear is down, but they can not confirm whether it is locked or not.
So what do you do, prepare the cabin for an emergency landing or just hope that it is locked down?
This is the grey areas that flight deck crew are paid to deal with. I know what I would do but these are the sort of scenarios that weigh heavily on my mind.
If you do ask the fire brigade if there are any signs of fire or smoke and they say that there isn't you are still none the wiser as to whether you have a fire or not.
So what are you going to do, evacuate or wait for steps with the chance of burning?
It is a bit like doing a tower fly by with gear trouble, and the tell you that the gear is down, but they can not confirm whether it is locked or not.
So what do you do, prepare the cabin for an emergency landing or just hope that it is locked down?
This is the grey areas that flight deck crew are paid to deal with. I know what I would do but these are the sort of scenarios that weigh heavily on my mind.
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According to Belgian newspapers today: it was a false warning and it turned out there was never any fire or smoke.
(I know you have to be careful with reports from the media)
But if this is true, why did the fire brigade recommend to evacuate?
In my opinion the fire brigade should not recommend such a thing, unless there's a good reason to do so of course.
The decision to evacuate or not should normally be made by the captain. That's indeed what he's paid for.
A "recommendation to evacuate" from the fire brigade is of course something difficult to neglect.
(I know you have to be careful with reports from the media)
But if this is true, why did the fire brigade recommend to evacuate?
In my opinion the fire brigade should not recommend such a thing, unless there's a good reason to do so of course.
The decision to evacuate or not should normally be made by the captain. That's indeed what he's paid for.
A "recommendation to evacuate" from the fire brigade is of course something difficult to neglect.
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But if this is true, why did the fire brigade recommend to evacuate?
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Most crews react very well and professional to such events; cracked windshields, smoke warnings, hydraulic failures etc. The only time I've ever heard a bit of panic was many moons ago when a pilot reported smoke in the cockpit, declared emergency and diverted into CdG. It would have been difficult for anybody, even for the coolest cucumber on the block, to stay cool under such circumstances. If there has to be panic, let it be organised. :-)
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Once on the ground I want to know if there is any smoke or flames.
If the answer is yes, i think immediate evacuation is recommended.
If not then I would delay evacution, and try to get everybody out via stairs.
An emergency evacuation itself is always dangerous with often broken limbs, head injuries and sometimes fatalities.
If the fire brigade recommended me to evacuate via the radio, I would suppose that they did so with a good reason, and launch the evacuation immediately. If it later turned out that this advice was given without a good reason, the fire brigade commander would have some explaining to do with me!
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I’m quite happy to agree with the fire chief. He’s an expert in aircraft fires and is paid to put them out. He doesn’t have a ladder 30,000 feet long, so I’ll bring the aircraft to him, and he can decide whether I’m on fire or not. Consequently, if he says 'evacuate' then I think I’m duty bound to follow his advice unless I’ve got clear and overriding evidence to the contrary.
It might take 20 minutes to evaluate the situation, but as someone has pointed out already, a smouldering fire could easily turn into an inferno as soon as it’s ventilated by the opened cargo door. A detailed inspection with infra-red cameras might lead the fire chief to decide that an evacuation is necessary, but if it takes 20 minutes to make that decision then that is what it takes!. I would also endorse an evacuation before the holds are opened for that very reason.
Too many people confuse thinking with indecision. A few precious minutes spent thinking is more valuable than five seconds of blind panic.
I suggest everyone off with no fatalities and a few undignified bumps and bruises is a commendable result. Armchair experts, Microsoft FlightSim 2000 aces, and journalists are hardly in a position to pass valuable judgments. I trust their remarks will be given due regard.
It might take 20 minutes to evaluate the situation, but as someone has pointed out already, a smouldering fire could easily turn into an inferno as soon as it’s ventilated by the opened cargo door. A detailed inspection with infra-red cameras might lead the fire chief to decide that an evacuation is necessary, but if it takes 20 minutes to make that decision then that is what it takes!. I would also endorse an evacuation before the holds are opened for that very reason.
Too many people confuse thinking with indecision. A few precious minutes spent thinking is more valuable than five seconds of blind panic.
I suggest everyone off with no fatalities and a few undignified bumps and bruises is a commendable result. Armchair experts, Microsoft FlightSim 2000 aces, and journalists are hardly in a position to pass valuable judgments. I trust their remarks will be given due regard.
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I’m quite happy to agree with the fire chief. He’s an expert in aircraft fires and is paid to put them out. He doesn’t have a ladder 30,000 feet long, so I’ll bring the aircraft to him, and he can decide whether I’m on fire or not. Consequently, if he says 'evacuate' then I think I’m duty bound to follow his advice unless I’ve got clear and overriding evidence to the contrary.
But afterwards I would definitely want to hear his reason for telling me to do so!
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Excellent response Capt, nice to hear the voice of reason, the decision to evacuate in my humble opinion is an agreement of understanding between you guys up there in the cockpit and the Fire Commander on the ground.
Each trusting each others judgement in their respective roles.
You relying on your instruments and what the aircraft is telling you and the Fire Commander relying on many years of experience in the job, with a full understanding of the consequnces of his decisions.
Just to qoute another response:
Airport Fire Crews, in this country at least, spend many hours on different types of aircraft, to famil on location and operation of doors and hatches, seat layout and cockpit configuration,
so when you guys can't operate them for any reason, we are there to do the job.
Each trusting each others judgement in their respective roles.
You relying on your instruments and what the aircraft is telling you and the Fire Commander relying on many years of experience in the job, with a full understanding of the consequnces of his decisions.
Just to qoute another response:
Airport Fire Crews, in this country at least, spend many hours on different types of aircraft, to famil on location and operation of doors and hatches, seat layout and cockpit configuration,
so when you guys can't operate them for any reason, we are there to do the job.