SkyAirlines land at EPKS instead of EPPO
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PtKay,
Yes it's seems that's this area is really dangerous, so I think that the Polish authorities have to do something to fix this situation.
Who are you, to call those pilots idiot? Hope for you that during your fly carrier you will never do a mistake.
Happy landing,
Oli
Yes it's seems that's this area is really dangerous, so I think that the Polish authorities have to do something to fix this situation.
Who are you, to call those pilots idiot? Hope for you that during your fly carrier you will never do a mistake.
Happy landing,
Oli
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I am not calling those pilots "idiots",
(you are right, evrybody can make a mistake),
but those from their trade union,
who call missing the proper runnway and landing at a closed airport "NORMAL"...
This is not NORMAL, this is dangerous, and this is not the fault
of Polish authorities !!!
There are hundreds and thousands of airports with procedural approaches,
and nobody calls NORMAL, when a pilot takes a wrong turn,
ignores FMS, GPS, ILS, and everythig else, he has in fron of his nose,
taking into consideration only what he sees through the windscreen,
and even more, taking a DARK runway on an evening landing !!!
THIS IS NOT "NORMAL"....
All the navigational aids were operational, the controllers suggestions
were clear and understandable. The warning on wrong approach was given.
The typical blame-pushing game.
(you are right, evrybody can make a mistake),
but those from their trade union,
who call missing the proper runnway and landing at a closed airport "NORMAL"...
This is not NORMAL, this is dangerous, and this is not the fault
of Polish authorities !!!
There are hundreds and thousands of airports with procedural approaches,
and nobody calls NORMAL, when a pilot takes a wrong turn,
ignores FMS, GPS, ILS, and everythig else, he has in fron of his nose,
taking into consideration only what he sees through the windscreen,
and even more, taking a DARK runway on an evening landing !!!
THIS IS NOT "NORMAL"....
All the navigational aids were operational, the controllers suggestions
were clear and understandable. The warning on wrong approach was given.
The typical blame-pushing game.
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PtKay,
Actually the "normal" is a problem of traduction between turkish and english(original text in turkish), the good traduction is such mistake "may happen".
Also what I didn't know is that the only approach in Poznan is a NDB approach. In my idea, ndb with a big jet aircraft is really dangerous. If it's not the first time why not put Ils on this approach???
Happy landing,
Oli
Actually the "normal" is a problem of traduction between turkish and english(original text in turkish), the good traduction is such mistake "may happen".
Also what I didn't know is that the only approach in Poznan is a NDB approach. In my idea, ndb with a big jet aircraft is really dangerous. If it's not the first time why not put Ils on this approach???
Happy landing,
Oli
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737oli:
...whatever the translation is, the bottom line is:
only responsible is PF and Capitain,
contorollers gave them instructions and trusted their
reporting "Runway in sight" !!!
If they had a wrong runway in sight, it was their fault,
and only THEIR fault to report it to the controller.
ATR: thanks for putting some things straight.
They had the FMS, ILS, GPS, and in spite of that
took the wrong runway...
That's all.
...whatever the translation is, the bottom line is:
only responsible is PF and Capitain,
contorollers gave them instructions and trusted their
reporting "Runway in sight" !!!
If they had a wrong runway in sight, it was their fault,
and only THEIR fault to report it to the controller.
ATR: thanks for putting some things straight.
They had the FMS, ILS, GPS, and in spite of that
took the wrong runway...
That's all.
Last edited by Ptkay; 5th Sep 2006 at 18:59.
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Ptkay - you are oversimplifying this... I am not saying "it was controllers fault", but you can't assign 100% the blame to the pilots. EPPO is very prone to such errors, even for crews familiar with the area - and the EPPO ATC authorities do NOTHING about it. They made the siuation even worse by shutting down the radar tracer - which might have saved the day had the controller seen the 737 was lined up for EPKS. For the time being, the only "countermeasure" is a small printed note on the Jeppesen chart. As the history shows - it's not enough... In that sense, it's not the pilots' fault but a systm fault.
Last edited by Stuck_in_an_ATR; 5th Sep 2006 at 16:01.
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ALways worth getting it right at EPPO
I do remember the military field being quite prominent near Poznan, but there are warnings promulgated in the Polish AIP, and therefore all brands of approach plates for this airport. For a crew not familiar with EPPO, one would expect a thorough briefing to have picked this up, especially for a procedural approach without radar. This kind of thing certainly makes the case for the radar, because Poznan is a delightful, but otherwise not really very busy airport.
More than a bit unfortunate for the crew though,
> "was in poor command of English language, and was showing symptoms of strong nervousness..."
I'm not surprised! To be met by a full military welcoming party, instead of the friendly EPPO "follow me" car, the memorable man in the yellow VW van, with "I'm from Poznan" on the back.
My own lasting memory of EPPO, was the regular opportunity to practice the straight-in VOR 11 and roll to the end on reverse idle, so saving brakes and engine cycles but most importantly creating some extra time so as to wolf down a fantastic hot takeaway meal from the canteen, pre-ordered from the handling agent for the princely sum of 10 Zlotty. Or was that 15 Zlotty ? The price tended to vary randomly, but the quality of the roast chicken or fish and freshly prepared red cabbage salad was easily up to BA club standard
, and set me up nicely for a trip back to Luton, straight out on the reciprocal runway 
Such a friendly airport to operate from. I must go back sometime soon for a look around the town, as it always looked quite nice in the magazine.
George.
More than a bit unfortunate for the crew though,
> "was in poor command of English language, and was showing symptoms of strong nervousness..."
I'm not surprised! To be met by a full military welcoming party, instead of the friendly EPPO "follow me" car, the memorable man in the yellow VW van, with "I'm from Poznan" on the back.
My own lasting memory of EPPO, was the regular opportunity to practice the straight-in VOR 11 and roll to the end on reverse idle, so saving brakes and engine cycles but most importantly creating some extra time so as to wolf down a fantastic hot takeaway meal from the canteen, pre-ordered from the handling agent for the princely sum of 10 Zlotty. Or was that 15 Zlotty ? The price tended to vary randomly, but the quality of the roast chicken or fish and freshly prepared red cabbage salad was easily up to BA club standard
, and set me up nicely for a trip back to Luton, straight out on the reciprocal runway Such a friendly airport to operate from. I must go back sometime soon for a look around the town, as it always looked quite nice in the magazine.
George.
Last edited by George Foreman; 5th Sep 2006 at 17:44. Reason: sp
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Latest news
"Skrzydlata Polska" a professional aviation magazine in Poland,
in its September issue published
the results of their independent investigation of the
incident at EPKS.
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/sp/0906/poz.htm
Translation of some interesting parts, new to the case:
1. they already missed to the right the CZE VOR,
mandatory in approach procedure
2. arriving from the south they turned to early to join 110
5 km from the runway line
3. they flew over Gądki grain elevator after the second procedural
turn with just 200-250m over the 40 m building.
4. after Gądki they made 45 bank turn and joined the EPKS runway line
5. a Cessna in pattern at Zerniki was 100 m ABOVE the 737 with
just 300 m lateral spacing !!!!
6. the turn MUST have been initiated by the capitain (not the female FO)
because from the FO position the EPKS runway was NOT VISIBLE.
7. the EPKS runway lights were NOT IN OPERATION.
Alltogether a really scary scenario with possible mid-air and groud collisions.
At our monthly AOPA meeting last week we invited
a member of the Polish Accident Commision to talk on GA safety issues,
and he confirrmed (off record, of course) most of the above.
He also confirmed, that TCAS was activated on the 737.
in its September issue published
the results of their independent investigation of the
incident at EPKS.
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/sp/0906/poz.htm
Translation of some interesting parts, new to the case:
1. they already missed to the right the CZE VOR,
mandatory in approach procedure
2. arriving from the south they turned to early to join 110
5 km from the runway line
3. they flew over Gądki grain elevator after the second procedural
turn with just 200-250m over the 40 m building.
4. after Gądki they made 45 bank turn and joined the EPKS runway line
5. a Cessna in pattern at Zerniki was 100 m ABOVE the 737 with
just 300 m lateral spacing !!!!
6. the turn MUST have been initiated by the capitain (not the female FO)
because from the FO position the EPKS runway was NOT VISIBLE.
7. the EPKS runway lights were NOT IN OPERATION.
Alltogether a really scary scenario with possible mid-air and groud collisions.
At our monthly AOPA meeting last week we invited
a member of the Polish Accident Commision to talk on GA safety issues,
and he confirrmed (off record, of course) most of the above.
He also confirmed, that TCAS was activated on the 737.
Last edited by Ptkay; 24th Sep 2006 at 10:20. Reason: spelling ;-)
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The question that springs to mind is: whatever happened to instrument scanning? One has to assume that it was a visual approach - as with a similar mistake with EIRJET in Ballykelly earlier this year.
All the same, even during a visual approach, proper scanning of the EADI, EHSI and RDMI would have given a subtle hint that something was amiss... to say nothing of situation awareness (possible wrong runway orientation).
Even if on a visual approach, it was a PAX-carrying flight, therefore operated under IFR, so all NAVAIDS must (should?) have been tuned and idented long before the runway came in sight. In other words, conducting a visual approach doesn't spare the crew from instrument scanning, and if something doesn't make sense... ask yourselves why! Also, I would think the possible confusion with Poznan/Krzesiny would have been noted on the relevant approach plates, so a proper approach briefing by the PF should take care of the situation awareness issue.
Cheers
All the same, even during a visual approach, proper scanning of the EADI, EHSI and RDMI would have given a subtle hint that something was amiss... to say nothing of situation awareness (possible wrong runway orientation).
Even if on a visual approach, it was a PAX-carrying flight, therefore operated under IFR, so all NAVAIDS must (should?) have been tuned and idented long before the runway came in sight. In other words, conducting a visual approach doesn't spare the crew from instrument scanning, and if something doesn't make sense... ask yourselves why! Also, I would think the possible confusion with Poznan/Krzesiny would have been noted on the relevant approach plates, so a proper approach briefing by the PF should take care of the situation awareness issue.
Cheers
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Here is a detailed map of Lawica/EPPO. It clearly says not to mistake it with Krzesiny.
Aircraft flying from south are passing VOR/DME in Czempin and then head straight to DVOR located half-way through Lawica's runway to begin ILS procedure for runway 29.
The First Officer was woman so Polish media started speculating she was responsible for the mistake. It could have been captain though as a person sitting on the right side in the flight deck wouldn't be able to see Krzesiny's runway as it was unlit.
Special commission in Poland is looking closely into this accident.
DO NOT MISTAKE KRZESINY aerodrome; 13.8 km (7.4 NM) SE OF POZNAN / Ławica WHEN APPROACHING RWY 29
Aircraft flying from south are passing VOR/DME in Czempin and then head straight to DVOR located half-way through Lawica's runway to begin ILS procedure for runway 29.
The First Officer was woman so Polish media started speculating she was responsible for the mistake. It could have been captain though as a person sitting on the right side in the flight deck wouldn't be able to see Krzesiny's runway as it was unlit.
Special commission in Poland is looking closely into this accident.
