London to Washington Flight diverted to Boston

[Eff Oh]

Agreed Jon
Your part of the interview was well put, and correct. I guess I was more thinking of the other "experts" on CNN and all the other channels who were talking as though they were pilots. To be honest I think the whole thing is caused by the news reporters and anchormen/women. Their level of speculation is staggering! People actually believe what they are wildly speculating at. In my opinion this causes more fear than the true event. The media has a lot to answer for, and should be taken to task. Just look at the stories of vaseline, notes about A-Q, screwdrivers etc.
Eff Oh
PS No worries about the England/UK thing. Just some of us here in Scotland sometimes think we don't exist!

[jondc9]

eff oh

Believe me when I say this, I have seen many behind the scenes things at CNN (which is much better than fox for example) and have actually said stuff like:

gee, I don't think this situation is that newsworthy.

I also indicated that I thought this was a mentally ill situation and not a terror plot.

BUT, the world is nuts. We try to take an honest view of flying. That is what prompted me to get involved ( I get NO pay!) Better to have a real pilot on, then someone who just sort of knows what a pitot tube is.

I will make mistakes, but I will try to be honest and forthright on the flying part of it.

It was quite early in the AM where I live (nevada, usa!) and my mind was still a bit behind the power curve. It is hard getting interviewed by someone who doesn't know about flying, and do it all before a world wide audience of millions...AND doing all of this with a really cheap telephone ( in the true mark of being a pilot, I am cheap!...my computer is 40 bucks used!)


I hope all of you will take my e mail address and when a breaking story on aviation is covered on CNN you will contact me with pertinent data as the story unfolds to help me be accurate.

EFF OH...I love Scotland! Wish I could go and see it in person!

regards

jon


ps...we here in Nevada are often overlooked as part of the USA! :-)

[GreatCircle]

Jon and EffOh (from the land of my birth - actually the city of my birth before the Great White North called my parents):

Great response Jon. Issue with the coverage, not just CNN, is the pressure to report and therefore create ratings, by being sensationalist, and flow snippets of info the viewers' way to keep them hooked. "Breaking News" soon becomes "Broken News"...

Now that Jon explained more about the United situation, and when the PIC took the divert decision, more details about the disruption in the cabin, and where she was in flight, the BOS decision looks sensible. In the thick of things, given the current climate, irrespective of this being a situation with a passenger with mental stability issues, you could understand why they reacted the way they did. I suspect the PIC knew it wasn't a security alert soon after declaring it.

We could easily divert into discussions about politics, American paranoia and so forth, but this topic is about the operational reasons and perceived threat to an aircraft which caused it to divert. Best to focus on aviation and flying!

2 years ago, on a service YYZ-GLA, just after half way, a fellow from the rear section of my flight, charged forward to the mid-galley, screaming about George Bush, screaming about how we're all going to die, and then tried to move up the cabin towards the pointy end.

The F/As grabbed him (he wasn't a small guy) and he was all over the place. A doctor on board assisted after we had him calmed (and restrained), and it turns out he had suffered some sort of seizure after the outburst, and he was provided with care, understanding and attention until arrival.

As they were trying to restrain him - and he did struggle hard - thoughts about getting to SNN were obviously right up there. However, the situation calmed down, and we arrived at GLA to be met with the usual welcoming committee.

I fall into the same trap as some contributors here, by crying foul before all the facts are out. Seeing what Jon has said about the UAL circumstances (not withstanding the F-15s of course - but that is now US procedure), how many of us, would have carried on to IAD ?

[Airbubba]

I will never fly with a US carrier again. The last time i did the crew were jittery, and used the security issue as an excuse to be down right rude. The service was appalling.

I can't argue with you there, the service on U.S. airlines is almost non-existent even on long haul. The flight attendants are empowered 'safety professionals', customer service is a fading memory in many cases.

Still, it's not just the U.S. that is jittery over the recent UK air security problem, a UK airliner diverted earlier today.

[Beausoleil]

I'm not a pilot, but I was amused by one sentence on the bbc(?) website. Apparently some expert opined that the detector was very sensitive and hence unlikely to be wrong.

[Stumpy1000]

Airbubba

Just to let you know mine wasnt a 'Brit-American' Dig, it just seems the way it is. I guess it is now down to the training systems on US carriers for the Cabin Crew. Your phrase 'They are now 'Empowered Saftey Professionals' sums it up nicely. Perhaps the US carriers need two types of Cabin Crew, one half can be the 'Empowered Saftey Professionals', and i just wish the other half could be those people that make you feel special after spending a lot of money with them, that ultimately goes to pay their mortgage. Just like it used to be. I cant understand why a security situation can affect peoples manners.

[cwatters]

It now appears she did have prohibited items after all...

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1208312006

Fri 18 Aug 2006
Deranged jet drama woman had screwdriver in her bag
ALASTAIR JAMIESON

Bizarre behaviour from woman carrying screwdriver and cigarette lighters Made several references to terrorism and urinated on the cabin floor Banned items on plane despite increased security embarrasing for BAA Key quote
"She made reference to being with people associated with two words. She stated that she could not say what the two words were because the last time that she had said the two words she had been kicked off of a flight in the United Arab Emirates" - FBI AFFIDAVIT

Story in full CRISIS-HIT airport operator BAA last night launched an investigation after a passenger who forced the diversion of a plane from Britain to the United States was found to have been carrying a screwdriver in her hand luggage.

FBI officials said the tool and cigarette lighters had been found in the bag of Catherine Mayo, 59, who is charged with interfering with a flight crew after being forcibly restrained as she flew from London to Washington on Wednesday.

The woman, from Vermont, urinated on the cabin floor and made comments believed to be references to al-Qaeda and 11 September while on board United Airlines Flight 923.

The flight, with 182 passengers and 12 crew members, landed in Boston with the escort of two F-15 fighter jets after the pilot declared an emergency on board.

Federal officials quickly dismissed any terror ties shortly after the flight landed, but the discovery that banned items had slipped through security at Heathrow will cause huge embarrassment at BAA.

The company has been widely criticised by airlines, travel bodies and passengers over its handling of the recent security clampdown, including two security breaches at another of its airports, Gatwick, earlier this week.

A spokesman for BAA at Heathrow said: "The safety and security of our passengers is our number one priority. We are currently investigating the incident and cannot comment further until both our investigation and the criminal investigation have been completed."

Mayo was due to appear in federal court yesterday to answer the charges.

According to an affidavit by FBI Special Agent Daniel Choldin filed in US District Court in Boston, cabin crew noticed Mayo about 90 minutes into the flight because she was pushing against the aircraft bulkhead. When the attendant told her to return to her seat, Mayo said she wanted to speak to an air marshal and made statements about knowing that people wanted to see what was in her bag.

FBI spokeswoman Gail Marcinkiewicz confirmed authorities found a screwdriver and an unspecified number of cigarette lighters in her bag, items which are banned under new security regulations. Ms Marcinkiewicz also confirmed that matches were found in Mayo's bag.

Later during the flight, according to the affidavit, Mayo asked a flight attendant: "Is this a training flight for United Flight 93?" The flight attendant did not know if she made a mistake because the flight was actually Flight 923, or if she was referring to Flight 93, the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania on 11 September, 2001.

During that time, she was "biting her fingers, rubbing her feet and in a constant state of movement. She appeared very agitated," the affidavit said.

She wrote in a note and said to flight attendants that she had been in a country illegally, and later said she had photographs of Pakistan. Her US passport indicated that on 15 August she had left Pakistan and entered the UK, according to the affidavit.

Flight attendants summoned the captain, who spoke to Mayo. During the conversation, she made reference to there being "six steps to building some unspecified thing".

"She made reference to being with people associated with two words. She stated that she could not say what the two words were because the last time that she had said the two words she had been kicked off of a flight in the United Arab Emirates," according to the affidavit.

The captain and purser both believed that she was referring to al-Qaeda, Mr Choldin wrote.

About 35 minutes later, when she tried to go to the toilet, the flight attendants directed her to a different lavatory. Instead, she pulled down her pants and urinated on the floor, Mr Choldin wrote in the affidavit, which was based on his interviews and those of other federal officials.

At that point, the captain ordered her to be restrained. Two male passengers helped a stewardess tackle Mayo and restrain her in plastic cuffs. She remained seated in the galley area of the plane until the flight landed.

The Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney said the woman was claustrophobic and became so upset she had to be restrained, and passengers said Mayo appeared to have emotional problems.

Martin Drinkwater, from London, told the Boston Globe: "She was in a frenzy. She then pulled her trousers and knickers down and squatted on the floor."

Antony Nash, 31, of San Diego, said he grew nervous watching the muttering woman seated near him, as she paced and made too many trips to the toilet. The pilot did not make a general announcement to passengers of what was happening.

"I noticed F-15s next to the plane. I said, 'Oh my God'. And then we saw the emergency vehicles," Mr Nash said.

Terror scares garner particular attention in Boston because of Logan's history. Members of al-Qaeda hijacked two planes from Logan on 11 September, 2001, and flew them into the World Trade Centre in New York.

Logan airport also was where an American Airlines Paris-Miami flight was diverted in 2001 when Richard Reid, the so-called shoe bomber, tried to blow up the plane. He was thwarted by attendants and passengers after he tried to light a fuse leading to the concealed plastic explosives in his trainers. He is now serving a life sentence.

Earlier in the week, airlines demanded investigations into security procedures at Gatwick after two separate breaches.

Thomas Cook called for the prosecution of a man who smashed his way on to one of its aircraft to retrieve a lost wallet. The charter airline operator accused Sussex Police of failing in its duty by releasing the man without charge, and is demanding answers from BAA as to how he was allowed to wander in a secure area.

The Asian man was discovered clutching a briefcase inside the plane at 1:10am on Tuesday.

The incident followed a lapse on Monday when a 12-year-old boy managed to board a plane at the airport without any documentation.

He had run away from a residential unit in the Wirral, Merseyside, and managed to pass through airport security checks and board a 6am Monarch Airlines flight to Portugal. Staff only realised the boy was a stowaway after he had sat down and been served a soft drink.

[GreatCircle]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

I can't argue with you there, the service on U.S. airlines is almost non-existent even on long haul. The flight attendants are empowered 'safety professionals', customer service is a fading memory in many cases.

Still, it's not just the U.S. that is jittery over the recent UK air security problem, a UK airliner diverted earlier today.

Interesting stuff Airbubba. Safety should be a given - a standard from Timbuktu to L.A. It's the service differenciators and crew attitude that remain upmost in a customer's mind. An indifferent crew on service generally = a bad experience.

I still believe service is key - and one that makes all the difference, and safety is omnipresent, underlying it all. Quietly.

US Carriers need to tend to the ever-decreasing and scant service levels. And none of us should rest on our laurels.

[jondc9]

how many of you have had something that could have been an emergency but you chose to keep cool about it and just get on the ground...AND THEN hear from the chief pilot that YOU SHOULD HAVE DECLARED AN EMERGENCY.

anyway, United says we got a problem with a passenger, blah blah blah...ATC and FAA and UNITED dispatch react with max efforts and you get

F15's
bomb dogs

your own personal runway at KBOS

And you feel a bit sheepish.

oh well, that's the new reality.

And as to service levels on airlines...you get what you pay for if you are lucky...out here in the good old USA, under the direction of GW BUSH...we are TOLD how good our economy is and how productive we are...BUT pilots, flight attendents, mx and the like have taken huge pay cuts, work more, appreciated less and may I say, don't give a damn?

Remember the good old days, just worried about wx or engines quiting at V1?

yikes!

jon

[PaperTiger]

Jon, if I may...

You said (and I agree)

REGAS: Well, the first thing nowadays is the pilot must stay in the cockpit protected by the heavy duty door in order to maintain control of the plane.

which seems to be at odds with other reports (including in this thread) that

Flight attendants summoned the captain, who spoke to Mayo.

I hoping that's false otherwise the 'impregnable' flightdeck thing would appear to have been a wasted effort. Or can 1 come out leaving just "the pilot" ?

REGAS: When the airplane is in the air, it still is a potential weapon that we learned from 9/11.

Same comment - it's not a potential weapon if the good guys are the only ones up front.

[jondc9]

papertiger

you make some good points. during live coverage you get very little information, you have to talk about things in general, vamping as it were, while waiting for facts to come in like:

the CEO of united gave all pilots a raise (science fiction of course).

Almost nothing surprises me anymore. I would HOPE that the pilots would stay behind a locked door and communicate via interphone.

While I was not on board, if the captain left the cockpit and it was locked and there was an international relief pilot on board, well I guess that wouldn't be too bad...BUT... I would rather trust the judgement of experienced f/a's (senior run from london to dc)and as it may turn out an Air Marshal than make the front end vulnerable.

Believe me, in the pre 9/11 days I would have gone back to take a look...but not now...

That lady might have been a distraction to allow bad guys to make their move.


There were actually people from TSA saying : An air marshal was not aboard the flight! Subsequent reports seem and I say again SEEM to discount that.


The news shows are in business to make money by getting ratings. I try to add some real pilot views to calm things down a bit.

You don't know how I hate stuff like:

The 737 was dumping fuel.

The pilots have trained for stuff like this for years.

The f/a's have excellent security training.

Airline management would never sacrifice safety for profit.


Care to add any?

jon

[Two's in]

Hopefully the Boston incident was a rare, somewhat unique event, caused by nervousness and overreaction by United, the like of which we should not see again for some time to come...

...or answer (B):

Muslim doctor wants apology from U.S. airline
Last Updated Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:52:04 EDT
CBC News

A Winnipeg doctor is demanding an official apology and compensation from United Airlines after being kicked off a flight in the U.S. this week, an incident he has characterized as "institutionalized discrimination." Dr. Ahmed Farooq, a Muslim, was escorted off an airplane in Denver on Tuesday. According to Farooq, reciting his evening prayers was interpreted by one passenger as an activity that was suspicious.

"The whole situation is just really frustrating," Farooq said. "It makes you uneasy, because you realize you have to essentially watch every single thing you say and do, and it's worse for people who are of colour, who are identifiable as a minority."

Farooq said the allegation came from a passenger who appeared drunk and had previously threatened him during the trip.

When flight personnel were alerted, the 27-year-old radiology resident and two colleagues — a man and a woman — were taken off their flight. They had been returning from a conference in San Francisco.

Farooq said that even officials from the Transportation Security Administration soon realized the flight crew had overreacted, but by the time that conclusion had been reached the trio were forced to stay in Denver for the night and catch a flight the next day — at their own expense. "There's no recourse," Farooq said. "There's no way to really be able to talk to anybody to really be able to reason it out. The police officers who talked to me afterwards and subsequent officials within the first three to five minutes, they were like, 'You know what? The crew made a mistake. We apologize that they took you off. They overreacted.'"

Brandon Borrman of United Airlines told the Winnipeg Free Press this week that the airline is obliged to take any allegations threatening passenger safety seriously, particularly in the wake of last week's arrests in the alleged bomb plot on flights from Britain to the U.S.

"Whenever these types of claims are made we have a duty to investigate," Borrman said. "Our flight crews are trained to make safety the No. 1 priority."

Winnipeg MP Pat Martin has called on federal Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day to raise the issue with his American counterparts.

[TheSailor]

Hello,

A claustrophobic 60 year old woman with a jar of hand cream is hardly a security threat. The aircraft was, however, put in danger in danger by the captain declaring a "security emergency". Having two fully armed fighters scrambled turned a minor drama into a potential disaster.

I wonder if, before send the "fully armed planes"...permission was requested and granted by the president of United States...as it's seems to be a "normal procedure"....as I read from a interwiew of Richard Cheney........

Mr. Cheney's statement that "the toughest decision was this question of whether or not we would intercept incoming commercial aircraft" ????. Publicly available FAA documents prove that fighter jets routinely intercept commercial aircraft under certain designated circumstances without requiring or asking for approval from the White House

Regards.