Korean Safety Audit
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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J.O.
It would seem that curries tend to agree with me. I'm very much enjoying my experience on the sub-continent and am finding my hosts to be exceptionally friendly and welcoming.
Maui
Greetings to you as well. Yes, I can imagine that for some KE is like heaven compared to wherever they worked previously, but equally for others it may be hell. The truth is it's neither but there are significant challenges attendant to the job whichever your viewpoint.
I would agree that the word "torture" is somewhat inflammatory and is damaging to the reputations of the many good and earnest Koreans at KE. But that such words accurately reflect the opinions of some who worked there (and the individual in question was actually well thought of by most locals and not an axe grinder) is in good part a reflection of the fact that there are those at KE who are neither good nor moral, who have unambiguous agendas to diminish the terms of employment and get rid of foreign pilots, and who are quite willing to carry out acts of personal vindictivness which they are not called to answer for. These malign characters damage honest individuals and reputations and poison the environment to the detriment of all at KE, and they do so without the slightest concern for the truth or any shred of personal integrity. We only need to look back to the attack on the ACP's in the thread you cited to remind ourselves of what it can be like.
Unfortunately, when such invidious individuals do what they do, the good and earnest Koreans who you and I have respect for are generally nowhere to be seen on the battlefield. Though they are good guys, they are, in my opinion, unwilling to defend a truth if doing so involves putting themselves in conflict with the machinations of those less honourable. Until they are willing to do so they will have to bear the weight of words like "torture" that the less worthy in their group bequeath to them.
I have in the past been a defender of the many good guys, just as you have, but until those good guys are prepared to stand up and say that they will not accept such behaviour from either local or expat, they will not be fully deserving of the defense you are providing them.
As I know you will appreciate it, I offer a final thought from the bible which I think is relevant:
Best wishes,
ELAC
It would seem that curries tend to agree with me. I'm very much enjoying my experience on the sub-continent and am finding my hosts to be exceptionally friendly and welcoming.
Maui
Greetings to you as well. Yes, I can imagine that for some KE is like heaven compared to wherever they worked previously, but equally for others it may be hell. The truth is it's neither but there are significant challenges attendant to the job whichever your viewpoint.
I would agree that the word "torture" is somewhat inflammatory and is damaging to the reputations of the many good and earnest Koreans at KE. But that such words accurately reflect the opinions of some who worked there (and the individual in question was actually well thought of by most locals and not an axe grinder) is in good part a reflection of the fact that there are those at KE who are neither good nor moral, who have unambiguous agendas to diminish the terms of employment and get rid of foreign pilots, and who are quite willing to carry out acts of personal vindictivness which they are not called to answer for. These malign characters damage honest individuals and reputations and poison the environment to the detriment of all at KE, and they do so without the slightest concern for the truth or any shred of personal integrity. We only need to look back to the attack on the ACP's in the thread you cited to remind ourselves of what it can be like.
Unfortunately, when such invidious individuals do what they do, the good and earnest Koreans who you and I have respect for are generally nowhere to be seen on the battlefield. Though they are good guys, they are, in my opinion, unwilling to defend a truth if doing so involves putting themselves in conflict with the machinations of those less honourable. Until they are willing to do so they will have to bear the weight of words like "torture" that the less worthy in their group bequeath to them.
I have in the past been a defender of the many good guys, just as you have, but until those good guys are prepared to stand up and say that they will not accept such behaviour from either local or expat, they will not be fully deserving of the defense you are providing them.
As I know you will appreciate it, I offer a final thought from the bible which I think is relevant:
Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
ELAC
JO
The “petty” I was referring to was some of the content of the “Delta” report over which this thread was sparked.
I come from a similar background to you (speak a bit different but essentially the same) so I know of what you speak.
The curry muncher has said most of what needs be said.
In days gone by, even when I started this job, fora such as this were non existent, how quickly we have come so far. (Or am just an old fart who didn’t notice the years go by). Whilst the internet and fora such as this are a tremendous asset, they do have their draw backs and use thereof requires some degree of discretion and responsibility. Where once we could mouth off about all thing that displeased us safe in the knowledge that it would not go far and consequences were unlikely, such is no longer the case. Everything that is written here and elsewhere is read and scrutinised by some who do not necessarily have a grip on the nuances and inflections intended by the authors. As such misinterpretations occur sometimes with undesirable consequences. In no way do I suggest that factual information should be censored or that informed constructive debate should not occur, but we should be very careful about subjective and inflammatory comments. I believe you have reflected, and appreciate that sentiment.
The bottom line is that: Change be it at Korean, Asiana, CAL, Emirates, Ryanair or whomever, can be achieved in either of two ways
A) under threat of punitive actions from regulatory authorities. Most times does not occur. FAA wanted to roast KAL but State Dept (US) told them to pull their heads in. (democracy in action great isn’t it) or :
B) by encouraging the target to want to change, so that ultimately they can stand up and say we wanted this we went about it and we achieved it.
Inflamatory, bigoted, misinformed chit chat does nothing too further the cause, in fact it sets the process back ‘cos if you throw enough stones people will retreat behind a wall they feel comfortable with and say screw you.
There are a lot of people here local and expat, trying to get some meaningful change. To a degree they have been successful, but there are many more yards to go before the touchdown. Please do not make the job any harder. Remember one day it may be you who wishes/needs to be here. We wish it to be here for you. It’s potentially your nest or the nest of someone you care about, too. Don’t **** in it.
Centaurus/411A/Kimchi kal/etc etc do you read!
Maui out
The “petty” I was referring to was some of the content of the “Delta” report over which this thread was sparked.
I come from a similar background to you (speak a bit different but essentially the same) so I know of what you speak.
The curry muncher has said most of what needs be said.
In days gone by, even when I started this job, fora such as this were non existent, how quickly we have come so far. (Or am just an old fart who didn’t notice the years go by). Whilst the internet and fora such as this are a tremendous asset, they do have their draw backs and use thereof requires some degree of discretion and responsibility. Where once we could mouth off about all thing that displeased us safe in the knowledge that it would not go far and consequences were unlikely, such is no longer the case. Everything that is written here and elsewhere is read and scrutinised by some who do not necessarily have a grip on the nuances and inflections intended by the authors. As such misinterpretations occur sometimes with undesirable consequences. In no way do I suggest that factual information should be censored or that informed constructive debate should not occur, but we should be very careful about subjective and inflammatory comments. I believe you have reflected, and appreciate that sentiment.
The bottom line is that: Change be it at Korean, Asiana, CAL, Emirates, Ryanair or whomever, can be achieved in either of two ways
A) under threat of punitive actions from regulatory authorities. Most times does not occur. FAA wanted to roast KAL but State Dept (US) told them to pull their heads in. (democracy in action great isn’t it) or :
B) by encouraging the target to want to change, so that ultimately they can stand up and say we wanted this we went about it and we achieved it.
Inflamatory, bigoted, misinformed chit chat does nothing too further the cause, in fact it sets the process back ‘cos if you throw enough stones people will retreat behind a wall they feel comfortable with and say screw you.
There are a lot of people here local and expat, trying to get some meaningful change. To a degree they have been successful, but there are many more yards to go before the touchdown. Please do not make the job any harder. Remember one day it may be you who wishes/needs to be here. We wish it to be here for you. It’s potentially your nest or the nest of someone you care about, too. Don’t **** in it.
Centaurus/411A/Kimchi kal/etc etc do you read!
Maui out
Last edited by maui; 23rd Aug 2006 at 03:10.
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Been there, done that and guess what? I would gladly go back. The moment we expats understand that is their country, their company and their culture, we enjoy. I did. The famous audit that triggered this discussion was a start and was performed as it was done then by any company on a code share business. Today it is the IOSA and that is IATA and not ICAO, ICAO do safety oversight of the Convention signatary countries and not airlines.
Cheers
Cheers
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Too bad the document no longer seems to be available on the web. It was a fascinating read. Remember, it was years before DL would codeshare with KE even though they were all in SkyTeam together.
The report was exhaustively detailed in terms of what was wrong and how to fix it. I believe it was the Guam 747 CFIT accident which triggered the study.
The report was exhaustively detailed in terms of what was wrong and how to fix it. I believe it was the Guam 747 CFIT accident which triggered the study.
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