Another very close ORD near hit.
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Originally Posted by BOAC
I I have never used LAHSO, but how on earth can you be certain that an a/c is definitely going to be able to stop short?
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Did someone mention FAA inertia? Take a look at ---
http://www.groundmarker.com/testimonials.asp
and then 'FAA History'.
http://www.groundmarker.com/testimonials.asp
and then 'FAA History'.
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Shameless speculation
Originally Posted by Doors to Automatic
It should be possible on ORD's 14R as there is almost 11000ft available before the intersection - hence my speculation that the 747 must have landed very deep!
The fact is, Atlas is not approved for LAHSO operations.
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I think any Atlas pilot would land long given the whole length to expedite taxi to their facility. I would. This wasn't even close since the United flight was over 300 feet above them where they crossed 27L. Yes, the controller screwed up but it wasn't a big deal.
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In order for the mere pax to understand if this was, or was not, a big deal, (bubbers44): What are the separation limits for ORD for their intersecting runways? Do they allow some measure of separation - or is it a complete ban on crossing when using opposing runways?
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I think any Atlas pilot would land long given the whole length to expedite taxi to their facility. I would.
Intentionally and needlessly giving up a couple thousand feet of runway just to expedite taxi a few minutes is NOT a reasonable trade in the 747 -- especially when landing at near max allowable landing weight. There are other options available on a long runway, including management of braking once on the ground.
FWIW, Atlas airplanes are more often found up north by the Signature ramp these days, rather than the SW ramp...
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Unfortunately, comments such as "...it wasn't a big deal." and "I think any Atlas pilot would land long given the whole length to expedite taxi to their facility." are the kind of give-aways that we are not dealing with professional pilots. They may like to post on this website and they may have a desire that you perceive them as professional pilots.
As has been pointed out above, no airline pilot, especially one flying a B747, would "try to land long" just to save two minutes of taxi time. In fact, I would challenge any airline pilot flying a jet to give an excuse for not flying a safe profile and aiming to touch down at the touch down point. It's not called that for nothing.
As for a near miss, even if it was 300 feet, is a near miss and the next time it may not be one. The whole reason it is being debated here is because there are more and more instances of these near misses at airports with intersecting runways being used simultaneously. The rules in place are obviously not good enough if these incidents are happening repeatedly. Whether it is a human or a technology failing has to be studied. If as mentioned above, even controllers have their doubts about issues such as LAHSO operations and we all know that at the end of the day it is down to money, then perhaps a bit more money should be spent on studying the problems. Have the beancounters weighed up how much it is going to cost if and when two airliners meet at an intersection when compared to the extra revenue they are generating from the increased traffic flow? A bit like knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
As has been pointed out above, no airline pilot, especially one flying a B747, would "try to land long" just to save two minutes of taxi time. In fact, I would challenge any airline pilot flying a jet to give an excuse for not flying a safe profile and aiming to touch down at the touch down point. It's not called that for nothing.
As for a near miss, even if it was 300 feet, is a near miss and the next time it may not be one. The whole reason it is being debated here is because there are more and more instances of these near misses at airports with intersecting runways being used simultaneously. The rules in place are obviously not good enough if these incidents are happening repeatedly. Whether it is a human or a technology failing has to be studied. If as mentioned above, even controllers have their doubts about issues such as LAHSO operations and we all know that at the end of the day it is down to money, then perhaps a bit more money should be spent on studying the problems. Have the beancounters weighed up how much it is going to cost if and when two airliners meet at an intersection when compared to the extra revenue they are generating from the increased traffic flow? A bit like knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
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Remember standing on the ramp at West Palm Beach with a Shorts 360 lined up on one runway and a Gulfstream Jet on an intersecting runway. At flag drop both went for it but then a penny dropped in both cockpits and both aborted, but not before hefty groundspeed had been attained by both. Very entertaining, read heart stopping. Tis only a matter of time.
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Unfortunately, the simultaneous rejects can be more dangerous, given the wrong circumstances, than one going flying. Just picture both airplanes coming to a stop at the intersection with all brakes a-smokin'... What was the "right decision" on the part of both pilots could have been disastrous despite best efforts!
Last time I stated "unable LAHSO" on tower contact at ORD, that controller told me 'We don't plan for it for heavies, anyhow.' (despite local procedures requiring the call when LAHSO is in effect). I suspect this incident was simply a mistake that ANY controller could make, MANY have made, but most of which didn't result in anything reportable, much less disastrous.
There will certainly be a lot of press regarding the incident, but they will continue in the future as long as humans continue flying and controlling. We just gotta be ready for them, like these involved pilots were!
Last time I stated "unable LAHSO" on tower contact at ORD, that controller told me 'We don't plan for it for heavies, anyhow.' (despite local procedures requiring the call when LAHSO is in effect). I suspect this incident was simply a mistake that ANY controller could make, MANY have made, but most of which didn't result in anything reportable, much less disastrous.
There will certainly be a lot of press regarding the incident, but they will continue in the future as long as humans continue flying and controlling. We just gotta be ready for them, like these involved pilots were!
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I didn't suggest the ORD incident was no big deal. Thankfully the 737 was light and flew well over the 747. It could have been a disaster if it was a departing heavy 747. The controller screwed up, end of story.
I think most pilots that are familiar with the airport they are flying into know which high speed they want to exit on to be efficient. Landings on 9 at Miami which is 13,000 feet and making the first available turn off pretty much guarantees that you will be following the plane landing behind you when you finally get up to the high speed he exited on. It isn't that hard to be both efficient and safe. Getting the landing clearance for the full length of 14R is probably standard procedure for Atlas to minimize their taxi time especially when the airport isn't that busy.
I think most pilots that are familiar with the airport they are flying into know which high speed they want to exit on to be efficient. Landings on 9 at Miami which is 13,000 feet and making the first available turn off pretty much guarantees that you will be following the plane landing behind you when you finally get up to the high speed he exited on. It isn't that hard to be both efficient and safe. Getting the landing clearance for the full length of 14R is probably standard procedure for Atlas to minimize their taxi time especially when the airport isn't that busy.
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Last edited by the_hawk; 26th Jul 2006 at 14:19.
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Folks, reread the statement. The news article states that they missed by 300', not that the UAL flight was 300' in the air 6-7000' feet down the runway.
Missing by 300' can be a completely different scenario than an overflight of 300'.
Missing by 300' can be a completely different scenario than an overflight of 300'.
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The major airline I flew for considered the 1000-1500 foot touch down the target and anything up to about 3000 feet or one third of the runway which ever was shorter a normal touchdown zone in dry conditions before considering a go around. Danny seems to think that is unprofessional. All my copilots and I from different backgrounds, military and civilian, don't have any problem with that on that 13,000 foot runway I was talking about earlier. A lot of my FO's would only use idle reverse to the optimum high speed with 4'000 feet remaining to not waste taxi time. I'm retired now but after 23,000 hrs with no incidents or violations don't consider myself the amateur that Danny portrays.
Danny does have over 2000 more post than me however. Does anybody know how much flying time he has?
Danny does have over 2000 more post than me however. Does anybody know how much flying time he has?
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misd-agin
As I understand the limited information in this thread: the departing machine was 300' up, when it passed over the cross runway? Therefore, if it had had to reject the T/O, it would have been on the ground at that point. Whether or not the landing 747 was at the intersection at the time, is not the point I would have thought. If the departing machine had not departed, then it would have been considerably closer to the arriving one and thus separation compromised. Looks like it's time to wait for the report.
Missing by 300' can be a completely different scenario than an overflight of 300'.
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According to one report the controllers advised both of them of their converging and United decided to continue the take off because they were able to climb above them. Good decision on United's part.
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Good decision on United's part
We've discussed this before; it has yet to be addressed,-
Some time soon it'll bite you guys in the arse; sorry but it's true.
Controversial, moi?
I fly into ORD most months at least twice. I think the controllers do an amazing job given the ridiculous amount of traffic they are compelled to handle. However, I find it one of the most chaotic and disorganised places I ever fly to (I have flown worldwide 747s and 777s for the past 16 years).
Before departure at ORD there are normally 3 runways given for departure. I routinely get perfomance figures for all because until the moment of being given taxy instructions it is a mystery which runway will be assigned. I have also been given one of the runways NOT given in the ATIS!
On the 777 changing the performance figures means reloading at least two pages of the FMC and often having to select another flap setting. I personally find that a recipe for a serious error as one person has to be heads in while taxiing in that busy environment.
I have gained the distinct impression (probably mistaken) at most major US airports that aircraft on approach are fitted into gaps that appear rather than having an overall co-ordinated master plan. I have experienced speed up then slow down then speed up again, been slotted into a gap behind slower traffic which resulted in a controller instigated go-around. That was at ORD funny enough and almost before we had raised the wheels we were given a height, heading and runway change for the next approach!
I don't blame the guys and gals but believe they are struggling with what appear inadequate procedures, inadequate managerial direction and too much traffic.
Before departure at ORD there are normally 3 runways given for departure. I routinely get perfomance figures for all because until the moment of being given taxy instructions it is a mystery which runway will be assigned. I have also been given one of the runways NOT given in the ATIS!
On the 777 changing the performance figures means reloading at least two pages of the FMC and often having to select another flap setting. I personally find that a recipe for a serious error as one person has to be heads in while taxiing in that busy environment.
I have gained the distinct impression (probably mistaken) at most major US airports that aircraft on approach are fitted into gaps that appear rather than having an overall co-ordinated master plan. I have experienced speed up then slow down then speed up again, been slotted into a gap behind slower traffic which resulted in a controller instigated go-around. That was at ORD funny enough and almost before we had raised the wheels we were given a height, heading and runway change for the next approach!
I don't blame the guys and gals but believe they are struggling with what appear inadequate procedures, inadequate managerial direction and too much traffic.
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I don't blame the guys and gals but believe they are struggling with what appear inadequate procedures, inadequate managerial direction and too much traffic.
