Russian Airbus crash
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It absolutely indicates a lack of understanding of TCAS. However it took somebody to sit down look at the information available and put pen to paper stating that in the event of an RA conflicting with ATC, you must follow ATC. They must have had a valid reason to think along those lines. Unfortunately it took a crash to rethink that method of operation and bring it into line with the rest of the world. You would have thought a ‘westerner’ had read the Russian AIP and though… oh that’s odd maybe I should find out what their understanding is. Or conversely the other way round, Russian pilots flying for western carriers could have spotted the fundamental difference. We all learn from our mistakes, the crime is whether anyone reported the misunderstanding and nothing was done.
You cannot however write off all Russian pilots/aircraft etc as unsafe.
Keep reading below for a not so relevant but none-the-less Russian story.
I have flown with a few Russian Captains; all of varying standards, one night however stands out. I have to say he was a Captain who I would regard as well above standard in the operation of the previous 3 sectors, although his English was poor. We were planning to take off from a slippery runway. I was going through the performance when he offered to show me a quick way to get the slippery runway T/o speeds. Being from a cold place I thought he might know a thing or two. The 737NG FMC can select WET speeds on page 2, it also has another selection SKD or something similar. To cut a long story short and an even longer argument short. He was of the opinion that SKD would produce the figures for a ‘skiddy’ runway it was however for improving the WET speeds when operating on a Skid-Resistant (grooved) runway. DOH
You cannot however write off all Russian pilots/aircraft etc as unsafe.
Keep reading below for a not so relevant but none-the-less Russian story.
I have flown with a few Russian Captains; all of varying standards, one night however stands out. I have to say he was a Captain who I would regard as well above standard in the operation of the previous 3 sectors, although his English was poor. We were planning to take off from a slippery runway. I was going through the performance when he offered to show me a quick way to get the slippery runway T/o speeds. Being from a cold place I thought he might know a thing or two. The 737NG FMC can select WET speeds on page 2, it also has another selection SKD or something similar. To cut a long story short and an even longer argument short. He was of the opinion that SKD would produce the figures for a ‘skiddy’ runway it was however for improving the WET speeds when operating on a Skid-Resistant (grooved) runway. DOH
Person Of Interest
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NSF,
You are off base re: "Russian" crews and a/c...
I just flew from JFK to SVO on an Aeroflot B-767, and would choose this rte over and over again for the professionalism, customer service and genuine feeling of well being the flight generated...
From SVO I flew to RIX on a TU-154, once again an excellent experience...
In the early-mid 1990's I was involved for over 2 yrs in the training and qualifying of former "Soviet Bloc" pilots (they're not all "Russian") on Boeing a/c, and getting them up to Western Standards...
As far as flying abilities, I have seen none better in my over 24 yrs as a commercial pilot...and I've never even gotten to ride in a "fast jet", let alone fly one...
You are off base re: "Russian" crews and a/c...
I just flew from JFK to SVO on an Aeroflot B-767, and would choose this rte over and over again for the professionalism, customer service and genuine feeling of well being the flight generated...
From SVO I flew to RIX on a TU-154, once again an excellent experience...
In the early-mid 1990's I was involved for over 2 yrs in the training and qualifying of former "Soviet Bloc" pilots (they're not all "Russian") on Boeing a/c, and getting them up to Western Standards...
As far as flying abilities, I have seen none better in my over 24 yrs as a commercial pilot...and I've never even gotten to ride in a "fast jet", let alone fly one...
To add to the OT discussion - Unlike Many western counterparts, the majority were not weaned on glass, or even highly automated flight decks, and although obvious, I have found that the raw data flying skills of these pilots somewhat superior to many I have met elsewhere who are cosseted by good radar coverage, glass and everything else.
I have had the fortune to meet many Uzbek Pilots (flying Western eqpt) formerly trained in Soviet times, and have to say those boys (no girls alas) are at least as good as their brothers in the West.
I have had the fortune to meet many Uzbek Pilots (flying Western eqpt) formerly trained in Soviet times, and have to say those boys (no girls alas) are at least as good as their brothers in the West.
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FWIW, I've seen photos from a trip within the past five years on civil aviation from Moscow to the civil airport serving the Russian Cosmodrome. One picture was of one of the main landing gear tyres - no tread at all, just fabric over much of the surface. The aircraft was not a "western" type.
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Aviation tragedies has always happened all over the world at all times. I believe we here in the Sates have the most of them, but we never blame with such a malicious tendency on our crews or aircrafts. We do it however on the Russians any times something happens over there. That’s strange because if I study their aviation I see they have a long history of great planes from Migs to space shuttles. Also one must assume they have pilots to fly those things. Check the records book. Majority of the records are between 2 countries and Russia is one of them. I have had the chance to fly in Russia a few times and I was impressed by the quality of their professionalism. I would say they could teach aviation many of us. I know I learn quite a few from some Russian crews.
A tragedy is a tragedy and as long aviation will be around accidents will happen. God rest their soles and that should be a lesson to all of us
A tragedy is a tragedy and as long aviation will be around accidents will happen. God rest their soles and that should be a lesson to all of us
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from the pictures Ihave seen I can't see if the thrust reversers were deployed or the spoilers
anyone see anything along those lines?
also, the AD (airworthiness directive) at:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...2?OpenDocument
might be interesting if inspections not done.
we must also acknowledge that planes do land long, pressure to "NOT GOAROUND" does exist and brakes fail or tires fail.
regards
jon
anyone see anything along those lines?
also, the AD (airworthiness directive) at:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...2?OpenDocument
might be interesting if inspections not done.
we must also acknowledge that planes do land long, pressure to "NOT GOAROUND" does exist and brakes fail or tires fail.
regards
jon
Well I'm disappointed although not surprised. The majority of the posts since yesterday provide no expert clues or discussions relating to a causal chain in this accident.
Instead I read post after post relating to "it must be the country's fault, because everybody knows they are unsafe".
Are there no new facts or analysis worthy of discussion in this thread?
Instead I read post after post relating to "it must be the country's fault, because everybody knows they are unsafe".
Are there no new facts or analysis worthy of discussion in this thread?
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hetfield
thanks for the input.
I was thinking more along the lines of Auto Brake/Anti-skid. Without my old manual as a back up I seem to recall a connection between arming the spoilers for landing and anti-skid protection. That`s why I was wondering if any A310 folks could shed some light. Especially now as our media friends have published the suggestion of a `brake` failure upon landing.
thanks for the input.
I was thinking more along the lines of Auto Brake/Anti-skid. Without my old manual as a back up I seem to recall a connection between arming the spoilers for landing and anti-skid protection. That`s why I was wondering if any A310 folks could shed some light. Especially now as our media friends have published the suggestion of a `brake` failure upon landing.
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Ignition Override
It`s been awhile since I last flew the A310/A300-600 so I`m sticking my neck out a bit on this one.
hetfield is correct, without arming the spoilers, you will get limited spoiler deployment but, as I recall, you must arm the spoilers for more than the one reason. One of which is anti-skid.
Like most high performance jets, anti-skid protection follows a certain logic tree and when three (usually) or so conditions are met, you get the desired result.
In the case where an aircraft touches down and is immediately into hydroplanning, there is usually insufficient wheel speed (and therefore no anti-skid signal) to have an effect. How much braking do you get from a tyre that isn`t turning due to hydroplanning? Perhaps NONE, eh?
I`ll stretch my neck out a little further here, if this aircraft touched down on a wet runway and immediately began to hydroplane (reports have it the pax applauded a very smooth landing, maybe not what you want on a wet runway?) resulting in little to no tyre rotation I don`t think it would be very different to sliding along on a patch of ice until an obstruction brought you to a stop.
In any event, there is always much to look at and consider in this or any accident. I am, like many others reading and commenting in this post, not judging anyone, but simply trying to understand and speculate what `might` have happened.
As for any crew indications of the spoilers being armed...
well, you pull up on the handle to arm them and that`s about it. NO lights, messages, ECAM indications, no painted metal. WYSIWYG. Not the only aeroplane out there that`s like that I`m afraid.
Back in the day my old operation used the physical action of arming the spoiler as the cue for calling for the Landing Checklist to the line. A two in one shot.
It`s been awhile since I last flew the A310/A300-600 so I`m sticking my neck out a bit on this one.
hetfield is correct, without arming the spoilers, you will get limited spoiler deployment but, as I recall, you must arm the spoilers for more than the one reason. One of which is anti-skid.
Like most high performance jets, anti-skid protection follows a certain logic tree and when three (usually) or so conditions are met, you get the desired result.
In the case where an aircraft touches down and is immediately into hydroplanning, there is usually insufficient wheel speed (and therefore no anti-skid signal) to have an effect. How much braking do you get from a tyre that isn`t turning due to hydroplanning? Perhaps NONE, eh?
I`ll stretch my neck out a little further here, if this aircraft touched down on a wet runway and immediately began to hydroplane (reports have it the pax applauded a very smooth landing, maybe not what you want on a wet runway?) resulting in little to no tyre rotation I don`t think it would be very different to sliding along on a patch of ice until an obstruction brought you to a stop.
In any event, there is always much to look at and consider in this or any accident. I am, like many others reading and commenting in this post, not judging anyone, but simply trying to understand and speculate what `might` have happened.
As for any crew indications of the spoilers being armed...
well, you pull up on the handle to arm them and that`s about it. NO lights, messages, ECAM indications, no painted metal. WYSIWYG. Not the only aeroplane out there that`s like that I`m afraid.
Back in the day my old operation used the physical action of arming the spoiler as the cue for calling for the Landing Checklist to the line. A two in one shot.
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Unfair to Russians
I think you should all (or those of you guilty of it) stop knocking Russian pilots. My impression after many years of flying as a pax with a variety of Eastern Bloc airlianes is that they are as good as anyone else.
One of my most memorable and informative excursions to the jump seat was on a flight into Sofia with Aeroflot back in the 1980's in an Illusian whatever (anhederal wings and a copy of a Trident).
What the Captain didn't know about arrivals in (sometimes) vicious weather to airports with minimal services would'nt have covered a postage stamp. And it turned out that he was earing something less than 25% of his western counterparts.
Just because a pilot isn't a Brit or a Yank does not mean that he can't fly.
One of my most memorable and informative excursions to the jump seat was on a flight into Sofia with Aeroflot back in the 1980's in an Illusian whatever (anhederal wings and a copy of a Trident).
What the Captain didn't know about arrivals in (sometimes) vicious weather to airports with minimal services would'nt have covered a postage stamp. And it turned out that he was earing something less than 25% of his western counterparts.
Just because a pilot isn't a Brit or a Yank does not mean that he can't fly.
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David Learmount claimed that children would not be able to evacuate as quickly as adults.
You can't beat a bit of David's Sky News speculation
I'm sure many are struck by the similarities to the Air France incident at Toronto.
CBs in the area.
Very wet runway.
Reports of landing long.
Very poor braking action.
Overrun at a significant speed.
Destruction by fire but sufficient escaped to show that evacuation time was key.
CBs in the area.
Very wet runway.
Reports of landing long.
Very poor braking action.
Overrun at a significant speed.
Destruction by fire but sufficient escaped to show that evacuation time was key.
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Originally Posted by Willie Everlearn
.. without arming the spoilers, you will get limited spoiler deployment but, as I recall, you must arm the spoilers for more than the one reason. One of which is anti-skid..
Have no idea how antiskid is influenced by spoilers armed or not.
Regards
Last edited by hetfield; 11th Jul 2006 at 07:06.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum
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Only link I could find after a very quick search.
Former Soviet Union Fatal Events = 25 and rate of death per event = 20.26
Next closest Turkish Airlines = 9 and rate of 7.51
And just for comparison BA = 2 and 1.4
You asked for the satistics.
Former Soviet Union Fatal Events = 25 and rate of death per event = 20.26
Next closest Turkish Airlines = 9 and rate of 7.51
And just for comparison BA = 2 and 1.4
You asked for the satistics.
Originally Posted by Screwballs
http://www.airsafe.com/events/regions/europe.htm
Only link I could find after a very quick search.
Former Soviet Union Fatal Events = 25 and rate of death per event = 20.26
Next closest Turkish Airlines = 9 and rate of 7.51
And just for comparison BA = 2 and 1.4
You asked for the satistics.
Only link I could find after a very quick search.
Former Soviet Union Fatal Events = 25 and rate of death per event = 20.26
Next closest Turkish Airlines = 9 and rate of 7.51
And just for comparison BA = 2 and 1.4
You asked for the satistics.
The Rate is the important column in that table, and, for the Former Soviet Union, is UNK, ie unknown. With a very brief estimate of the number of flights operated on passenger or cargo services by all airlines in the former Soviet Union, the rate goes down to a level comparable with many countries listed, and better than quite a few.
I won't share my estimate, because it's just that, but it's a plausible number relative to the fleets involved. Anyone can do the sum. Sector lengths in that part of the world are very long, which would tend to worsen any accident rate measured by flights as opposed to CTK (Capacity Tonne Kilometers), which is the only good basis for comparison of accident rates.
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I for one will not speak badly of russian pilots simply because they are russians.
there are good pilots in the US, UK and all over the world. There are a few less than good pilots in the US, UK and all over the world too.
Having said that:
It is incumbent upon us as pilots to use the right kind of landing for the situation. Just as a carpenter has many grades of sand paper, a pilot has a few different types of landings up his sleeve.
One type, to be used on wet runways is to "plunk it on" and be ready to asses stopping ability right away... Including MANUAL DEPLOYMENT of spoilers.
We don't know what happened here. A russian minister indicates that brakes are considered the problem, but we shall see.
I also agree that this is similiar to the A340 at CYYZ at first blush.
Has anyone seen pictures of the thrust reverser position?
regards
jon
there are good pilots in the US, UK and all over the world. There are a few less than good pilots in the US, UK and all over the world too.
Having said that:
It is incumbent upon us as pilots to use the right kind of landing for the situation. Just as a carpenter has many grades of sand paper, a pilot has a few different types of landings up his sleeve.
One type, to be used on wet runways is to "plunk it on" and be ready to asses stopping ability right away... Including MANUAL DEPLOYMENT of spoilers.
We don't know what happened here. A russian minister indicates that brakes are considered the problem, but we shall see.
I also agree that this is similiar to the A340 at CYYZ at first blush.
Has anyone seen pictures of the thrust reverser position?
regards
jon
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Originally Posted by 5 APU's captain
Officially one of the reversers was INOP (MEL item).
Everything other is only speculation at the moment.
Everything other is only speculation at the moment.
regards,
rts
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the times I have flown with tr's inop, the choice on runway condition was left to the captain (me).
I was given a plane with inop tr and a flight to chicago midway. I turned it down, even though the wx was pretty good. got another plane pronto.
we must all remember that the greatest amount of stopping comes from the wheel brakes...tr's are icing on the cake, but very needed in wet/icy runway ops.
j
I was given a plane with inop tr and a flight to chicago midway. I turned it down, even though the wx was pretty good. got another plane pronto.
we must all remember that the greatest amount of stopping comes from the wheel brakes...tr's are icing on the cake, but very needed in wet/icy runway ops.
j