Low paid pilots from UK
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Sorry, Airbubba, of course the almost $1 Billion US Public Liability Insurance Limit is shared professionally with the FO, but under all the conventions we fly (Warsaw, Montreal et al) I only recall ever seeing the Commander as liable.
Anyone else is of course entitled to stake their claim. Only the Commander will be hauled up and held liable however.
All the best, enjoy wiping your feet, you may find yourself similarly liable if you peruse your companies insurance documents. Ours are held on the flight deck in a yellow folder, and everything I have written here is verifiable.
Alien
[This message has been edited by Alien Shores (edited 08 May 2001).]
Anyone else is of course entitled to stake their claim. Only the Commander will be hauled up and held liable however.
All the best, enjoy wiping your feet, you may find yourself similarly liable if you peruse your companies insurance documents. Ours are held on the flight deck in a yellow folder, and everything I have written here is verifiable.
Alien
[This message has been edited by Alien Shores (edited 08 May 2001).]
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busybee and wonderbusdriver - as I said, it's a team effort. That includes management: and I agree with you that the contractual rules shouldn't be changed by them either; at least not without prior concensus as to how any negative change will be made up subsequently. That way, at least, everyone know's where they stand.
Alien Shores your third party liability insurance cover is simply there to cover your company in the event that you're flying the American Bar Association home to New York and you crash into Wall Street.
I think you have put your finger on a rather good point - it's when the chips are down that most pilots really earn their money. Some, of course, don't come up to scratch ...
seasunsandfly - nope, I just think that they know when they are between a rock and a hard place and they caved in to try and avert a strike. Unfortunately, in my opinion, with the current economic situation it was a bad move.
Alien Shores your third party liability insurance cover is simply there to cover your company in the event that you're flying the American Bar Association home to New York and you crash into Wall Street.
I think you have put your finger on a rather good point - it's when the chips are down that most pilots really earn their money. Some, of course, don't come up to scratch ...
seasunsandfly - nope, I just think that they know when they are between a rock and a hard place and they caved in to try and avert a strike. Unfortunately, in my opinion, with the current economic situation it was a bad move.
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.....ahh Guvnor, maybe we are singing from the same hymn sheet....
....and from a management point of view, compare and contrast the handling of British Airways under Mr Robert Ayling, where they have more non-essential personnel per-aircraft today than any other 1st World carrier in the (250 p/a I believe, at least.) To whom would you rather trust your most important investments?
We were guided by those who not only did not come up to scratch, but forgot to even check out a towel before they entered the swimming pool. I will not be held even partly liable for their faux-pas. You are, however, welcome to fly with me any day......
Alien
You choose. It would be interesting to see where your bottom line really lies.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I think you have put your finger on a rather good point - it's when the chips are down that most pilots really earn their money. Some, of course, don't come up to scratch ... </font>
We were guided by those who not only did not come up to scratch, but forgot to even check out a towel before they entered the swimming pool. I will not be held even partly liable for their faux-pas. You are, however, welcome to fly with me any day......
Alien
You choose. It would be interesting to see where your bottom line really lies.
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>>Sorry, Airbubba, of course the almost $1 Billion US Public Liability Insurance Limit is shared professionally with the FO, but under all the conventions we fly (Warsaw, Montreal et al) I only recall ever seeing the Commander as liable.<<
>>Only the Commander will be hauled up and held liable however.<<
Think you may be a little confused on this one, the Warsaw Convention in most cases limits the liability of the carrier, not the Commander.
Anyway, crew concept is a little different over here in the States, there is probably more blame spread around in the event of a mishap.
All of these fancy conventions limit the liability of the air carrier to much less than a billion, e.g. the Warsaw Convention Montreal Agreement limit of $75,000 per pax. The Guatemala Protocol provides for an "unbreakable" limit of $100,000 (or 100,000 International Monetary Fund Special Drawing Rights in Montreal 3 and 4).
I certainly am not privy to my company's insurance documents, and they are not privy to mine <g>. Under the U.S. system you don't want a potential litigant to know how deep your pockets are. Knowing the British system you probably carry a copy of the insurance policy in the plane and page check it before every sector. I'm joking, I think.
We set the standards for awards to ambulance chasing lawyers, so far no crash has come anywhere near a billion in liability. I think perhaps the Public Liability Insurance Limit is a somewhat artificial number rooted in UK law, it struck me as being a little hyperbolic when figuring our worth as pilots. Here in America we don't know how much we're worth but we sure know how much we get paid <g>.
Our system of threatening job actions and down to the wire negotiation isn't always fun, but it has brought us tremendous gains in compensation and work rules compared to the stagnant conditions overseas. Of course, you gotta know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.
You guys sure deserve more than you're getting from what I can see, and I've worked on both sides of the fence... I shouldn't sound sarcastic but a pilot union over here going after a 3% raise would be run out of town on a rail.
[This message has been edited by Airbubba (edited 08 May 2001).]
>>Only the Commander will be hauled up and held liable however.<<
Think you may be a little confused on this one, the Warsaw Convention in most cases limits the liability of the carrier, not the Commander.
Anyway, crew concept is a little different over here in the States, there is probably more blame spread around in the event of a mishap.
All of these fancy conventions limit the liability of the air carrier to much less than a billion, e.g. the Warsaw Convention Montreal Agreement limit of $75,000 per pax. The Guatemala Protocol provides for an "unbreakable" limit of $100,000 (or 100,000 International Monetary Fund Special Drawing Rights in Montreal 3 and 4).
I certainly am not privy to my company's insurance documents, and they are not privy to mine <g>. Under the U.S. system you don't want a potential litigant to know how deep your pockets are. Knowing the British system you probably carry a copy of the insurance policy in the plane and page check it before every sector. I'm joking, I think.
We set the standards for awards to ambulance chasing lawyers, so far no crash has come anywhere near a billion in liability. I think perhaps the Public Liability Insurance Limit is a somewhat artificial number rooted in UK law, it struck me as being a little hyperbolic when figuring our worth as pilots. Here in America we don't know how much we're worth but we sure know how much we get paid <g>.
Our system of threatening job actions and down to the wire negotiation isn't always fun, but it has brought us tremendous gains in compensation and work rules compared to the stagnant conditions overseas. Of course, you gotta know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.
You guys sure deserve more than you're getting from what I can see, and I've worked on both sides of the fence... I shouldn't sound sarcastic but a pilot union over here going after a 3% raise would be run out of town on a rail.
[This message has been edited by Airbubba (edited 08 May 2001).]
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Knowing the British system you probably carry a copy of the insurance policy in the plane and page check it before every sector. I'm joking, I think.</font>
Yeah, I know the Warsaw limits the carrier to £2.50 per-incident or some such low figure , but all references in all the conventions to the guy up front go one way, Airbubba, with the specific term commander used to differentiate those countries or operators where the captain may not be an operating pilot.
However, we are on the same team, so thanks for your support! Send some of your union boys over to BALPA, we really need their advice.
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Dear Guvnor,
Once again you've managed to lead a post into an unending discussion which you shouldn't even be a part of. You are obviously not a pilot (or maybe you've greased your way into a Chief Pilot's seat). In any case, maybe you haven't realized that this is the Pro "PILOT´S" Rumour Network and you should leave the discussing to us pilots. I for one am no longer interested in reading your ridiculous posts. Maybe you could have spent your 2000+ posts on a different forum; you're sure not convincing any of us.
Once again you've managed to lead a post into an unending discussion which you shouldn't even be a part of. You are obviously not a pilot (or maybe you've greased your way into a Chief Pilot's seat). In any case, maybe you haven't realized that this is the Pro "PILOT´S" Rumour Network and you should leave the discussing to us pilots. I for one am no longer interested in reading your ridiculous posts. Maybe you could have spent your 2000+ posts on a different forum; you're sure not convincing any of us.
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Guys, For goodness sake, stop letting him tick you off! He is only some failed airline startup type, full of empty promises, who likes to tease people- in this case prefessional pilots. YOOU HAVE BEEN WARNED what he, and a couple of others are up to! Just ignore the teasing- he and the others do not belong in this discussion area.
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I'm one of those odd Brits that, up to now, has been generally happy with the package I get. I get more than most people I know in other professional fields in UK, and the maximum achievable in the UK majors (around £120K or $180K) compares pretty well with the top of those other professions. Sure, few people achieve that level of pay, but that's equally true of a lawyer, doctor or whatever. Payscales of £200,000 ($300K) are not likely for anyone not in the company board business, or who is not a top-line professional sports or entertainment person.
However, I did have cause to blink a bit when I discovered that the Mears bus driver who drove us from MCO to the hotel was earning more from his military pension ($58K) than I get in basic salary from my airline! Add his Mears pay, and he was earning more than our skipper - and we're talking a 747 crew here! Now, I know that pay in general is better in the US than the UK, but that really shocked me. Yet the Comair guys in the strike line at MCO were probably on less than half this guy's earnings. It's a strange world!
However, I did have cause to blink a bit when I discovered that the Mears bus driver who drove us from MCO to the hotel was earning more from his military pension ($58K) than I get in basic salary from my airline! Add his Mears pay, and he was earning more than our skipper - and we're talking a 747 crew here! Now, I know that pay in general is better in the US than the UK, but that really shocked me. Yet the Comair guys in the strike line at MCO were probably on less than half this guy's earnings. It's a strange world!
:P Guest
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Incredible that "The Guvnor" can still parade around this forum claiming to be some sort of aviation professional!
I see that your latest "defamation", or is it exposé, is still on the 'net, at http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html , even after you threatened the author with legal action!
I see that your latest "defamation", or is it exposé, is still on the 'net, at http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html , even after you threatened the author with legal action!
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Haven't read the whole thread, but my main memory of pilots from the UK was the way so many of them fell over themselves to screw fellow pilots half a world away in Australia in 1989 for some perceived short-term gain for themselves. They weren't forced to do this, (as some will now attest) - many begged to be allowed to go, and when they got there, took great delight in rubbing 'it' in the faces of the men and women they put out of work.
And now, the same people complain about all the Australians coming to the UK to take their jobs, when, truth be told, if they'd stayed away in 89, few Australians would have needed to go overseas to find work, and many of those who did would have returned home.
You're your own worst enemies. Or at least there are enough of such people among you to drag the rest of you down and keep you there.
And now, the same people complain about all the Australians coming to the UK to take their jobs, when, truth be told, if they'd stayed away in 89, few Australians would have needed to go overseas to find work, and many of those who did would have returned home.
You're your own worst enemies. Or at least there are enough of such people among you to drag the rest of you down and keep you there.
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Pilots receive a scandalously low pay in Europe.
I recently learned that future boat officers (tankers, freighters...) in INDIA (YES !) receive 1500£/month DURING THEIR TRAINING (training which is financed by companies). Not bad for India. Some UK pilots dont make so much.
When you consider that pilots have to pay most of the time for their training with a low job garantee. In fact, i would not advise the profession to anyone, excepted maybe military pilots.
I recently learned that future boat officers (tankers, freighters...) in INDIA (YES !) receive 1500£/month DURING THEIR TRAINING (training which is financed by companies). Not bad for India. Some UK pilots dont make so much.
When you consider that pilots have to pay most of the time for their training with a low job garantee. In fact, i would not advise the profession to anyone, excepted maybe military pilots.
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Spad
While I acknowledge your right to be bitter and twisted about ancient history that once (presumably) affected your own best interests, I wonder how you link the statements made in your post above to the title of this thread.
I most respectfully suggest you take your whinging elsewhere, dear chap, and less of the derogatory and racist remarks.
While I acknowledge your right to be bitter and twisted about ancient history that once (presumably) affected your own best interests, I wonder how you link the statements made in your post above to the title of this thread.
I most respectfully suggest you take your whinging elsewhere, dear chap, and less of the derogatory and racist remarks.
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When we arrived at Milwaukee (KMKE), Wisconsin this afternoon, a short flight north of Chicago's O'Hare Airport, a huge, very shiny green Irish airline A-330 (Shamrock?) was at the next gate, because of weather or a related traffic back-up just earlier at or near O'Hare (KORD).
When those two pilots were considering a divert from wherever they were holding or zigzaging via vectors, with maybe very limited fuel and requiring a fairly long runway(?), with few in the area (O'Hare, their planned destination, has the longest), who was up there in the cockpit to figure out for the crew the CRITICAL 1) safety vs 2)cost vs 3)passenger service vs 4)schedule delay options, often in contradiction with each other? The cockpit automation can't make command decisions for you. If it had been winter, any divert airport might have been near or at minimums with slippery runways, whether the aircraft's systems decide to behave or not.
Considering the sad results of a few wrong decisions or ommisions (easier to make with low experience), should not those A-330 pilots and any others, who are not working for a government dept, earn among the top salaries/benefit packages in the industry-unless their company is very deeply in debt, compared to its competitors?
Who can claim that a COCKPIT crew does NOT make corporate EXECUTIVE DECISIONS, flying top corporate revenue-producing assets onto windy, limited concrete at 140 miles per hour or more? I'm not necesaarily advocating salaries/benefits much above the main competition, but it should be at least equal to the higher-paying average (BA, Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, SAS...?, with "typical" cost of living increases and salaries designed for the gigantic tax bite over there, built in to the contract. Just food for thought.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 11 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 11 May 2001).]
When those two pilots were considering a divert from wherever they were holding or zigzaging via vectors, with maybe very limited fuel and requiring a fairly long runway(?), with few in the area (O'Hare, their planned destination, has the longest), who was up there in the cockpit to figure out for the crew the CRITICAL 1) safety vs 2)cost vs 3)passenger service vs 4)schedule delay options, often in contradiction with each other? The cockpit automation can't make command decisions for you. If it had been winter, any divert airport might have been near or at minimums with slippery runways, whether the aircraft's systems decide to behave or not.
Considering the sad results of a few wrong decisions or ommisions (easier to make with low experience), should not those A-330 pilots and any others, who are not working for a government dept, earn among the top salaries/benefit packages in the industry-unless their company is very deeply in debt, compared to its competitors?
Who can claim that a COCKPIT crew does NOT make corporate EXECUTIVE DECISIONS, flying top corporate revenue-producing assets onto windy, limited concrete at 140 miles per hour or more? I'm not necesaarily advocating salaries/benefits much above the main competition, but it should be at least equal to the higher-paying average (BA, Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, SAS...?, with "typical" cost of living increases and salaries designed for the gigantic tax bite over there, built in to the contract. Just food for thought.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 11 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 11 May 2001).]
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The Guvnor,
Hmmmmmmm. Registered 9 July '99.
Posts in PPrune, 2086 in 22 Months +/-.
Three per day give or take the fraction on the end.
It must take a bit of time to read the posts that he replies to/rebutts. Add in the time to compose his own posts and it makes you wonder how he finds time to do a job as CEO of a start up airline. Or are we all being had?
Hmmmmmmm. Registered 9 July '99.
Posts in PPrune, 2086 in 22 Months +/-.
Three per day give or take the fraction on the end.
It must take a bit of time to read the posts that he replies to/rebutts. Add in the time to compose his own posts and it makes you wonder how he finds time to do a job as CEO of a start up airline. Or are we all being had?