Congressman Mica says no to Fed-funded A380 airport improvements
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Rocky Rhoades pretty much hit the nail on the head. Plenty of Morons to get worked up about something pointless for votes.
Any airport that needs and wants to make the improvements will get the money anyways. Mica is just pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Same reasons behind the US trade embargo on Cuba.
Any airport that needs and wants to make the improvements will get the money anyways. Mica is just pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Same reasons behind the US trade embargo on Cuba.
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Originally Posted by West Coast
I'd like to see who funded improvements at Euro airports, especially those who don't have a huge stake in the success of the 380.
There seems to be a view here that airports are upgrading for the 380 just for the sake of it - surely the reality is that they are doing it because of the commercial benefit. If your upgrade means that an airline using you upgrade the aircraft size to a 380, then you will benefit financially from the extra passengers. As with anyother ilne of business you will get the funding from whoever is prepared to give it, and if that is public funding then so what? As long is it done in an accountable way (ie not in secret) then the public will be able to vote on the public officials' efforts in the usual way.
It's a fact of life that in a democracy politicians say things that they think will make their constituents re-elect them, whether that is the US, UK or even Iran! Doesn't always mean that they will do what they say once the ballot boxes are closed.
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Originally Posted by West Coast
I'd like to see who funded improvements at Euro airports, especially those who don't have a huge stake in the success of the 380.
I like that, no expectation then (at least I hope) that the govt. will fund all improvements.
Though I guess that could raise the argument of Airbus and funding, but thats a seperate argument. One that I'm not sure of the answer before anyone attacks.
Though I guess that could raise the argument of Airbus and funding, but thats a seperate argument. One that I'm not sure of the answer before anyone attacks.
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Originally Posted by Check 6
Yes, Florida does advertise in Europe, and the tourists are coming over in droves, thank you very much. But how could that happen you ask? No 380 yet? They are coming over in 777's and other fine Boeing products.
A US airline operating Airbuses? Many of them do and lots of them as well.
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Originally Posted by Check 6
Yes, Florida does advertise in Europe, and the tourists are coming over in droves, thank you very much.
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A380 Wheel Loading
How does the A380's current wheel loading compare with 744s and 773ERs ?
I thought it was meant to be pretty similar, right?? Wouldn't this therefore mean that this Congressman is talking even more bo!!ocks?
I thought it was meant to be pretty similar, right?? Wouldn't this therefore mean that this Congressman is talking even more bo!!ocks?
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I don't think it is a wheel loading issue - which can be easily controlled in design - as much as it is the MTOGW of the airplane when it comes to runway and taxiway bridges.
Someone commented about the Concorde and the "protectionist" Americans not allowing overland flights because of sonic booms. The protectionist theory doesn't hold water. NASA and U.S. airframers have looked at supersonic transport studies several times over the last 30 years, and a baseline assumption was that the airplane would fly over populated land masses at high subsonic speeds unless some way was found to significantly mitigate the perceived effects of sonic booms. The Concorde failed on its own merits. Yes it was a great technological achievement and a source of pride for Europe - but it could never make money with 100 seats whether it could fly unrestricted over the U.S. or not. Could that thing even do LHR-LAX anyway without refueling? Or was the assumption that the U.S. carriers would embrace it? Even if, it would have flopped once deregulation hit.
I agree with the comment about that nutjob Mica - that Boeing probably would rather have him keep his mouth shut. The A380 airport upgrades with federal money are one thing (i.e. not totally unreasonable) - but the rest of his agenda is plain lunacy, and as an American I find it quite embarrassing.
Someone commented about the Concorde and the "protectionist" Americans not allowing overland flights because of sonic booms. The protectionist theory doesn't hold water. NASA and U.S. airframers have looked at supersonic transport studies several times over the last 30 years, and a baseline assumption was that the airplane would fly over populated land masses at high subsonic speeds unless some way was found to significantly mitigate the perceived effects of sonic booms. The Concorde failed on its own merits. Yes it was a great technological achievement and a source of pride for Europe - but it could never make money with 100 seats whether it could fly unrestricted over the U.S. or not. Could that thing even do LHR-LAX anyway without refueling? Or was the assumption that the U.S. carriers would embrace it? Even if, it would have flopped once deregulation hit.
I agree with the comment about that nutjob Mica - that Boeing probably would rather have him keep his mouth shut. The A380 airport upgrades with federal money are one thing (i.e. not totally unreasonable) - but the rest of his agenda is plain lunacy, and as an American I find it quite embarrassing.
As for some federal funding, although I don't know or have the exact numbers, a serious fraction of each airline ticket sold by a US airline consists of federal taxes.
I have no idea about the taxes and fees paid by "freightdog" airlines such as Fedex, which ordered the A-380. The US airlines are being choked by HUGE, exorbitant federal taxes and fees. Fedex's main base in Memphis has at least one runway which already accomodates their TN A.N.G. C-5 Galaxy and sometimes Kallita 747s (jingle bells...).
The politicians here constantly change their stories just before elections (even Hillary Clinton, who voted to go to war in Iraq [uh oh
-the secret is out!], was recently booed by many of her more radical supporters at a rally), but the GOP and Democratic parties often resemble each other. They differ a bit on platforms, but many fail to realize that many US voters are somewhat in the middle. Although history by now, let's not try to forget many possible forebears of Congressman Mica's feisty mentality (right or wrong-at least now): the more courageous, thousands of rednecks who never returned to their temporary beds in England (1942-44), Arnhem or frozen Bastogne foxholes etc. Various books claim that very many were volunteers. About two years ago I rode a rented bicycle/fiets from the main railway station in Maastricht to the resting places of thousands of soldiers a few miles away at Margraten (NL), just by coincidence, and also visited Omaha Beach (we just came back June 1), etc.
As a comparison, quiet murmors of protectionist tactics among 'Euro' or British/Irish politicians began (or don't exist) when the Euro currency was born, and the agricultural trade talks (even the unlettered colonials can sometimes find illegally exported copies of "the Economist" magazine in airport giftshops etc)?
It might be just a small bit of political irony here, that German intelligence agents were 'allegedly' on the scene when the invasion started, in Baghdad, Irak, and coordinated with certain US forces. This created some embarassment for certain Politiker zu Hause (at home), among the 'greener' elements of the coalition. The [former?] Aussenminister/Foreign Minister Joschke Fischer 'allegedly' helped to severely beat up a German policeman when he was a mischievous younger lad in a street demonstration, and seriously burn another officer by throwing a Molotov cocktail. Some US politicians sound crazier, (or are) because most on Pprune can read their original words in a language which they understand.
Many politicians, at least in the US, appear to survive by typical lies, forgotten promises, pledges and 'heartfelt sympathies'-or gross distortions, similar characteristics to ( a Chief Financial Officer's) hours of forgetfulness and omissions about basic airline financial situations and outright lies in US bankruptcy court in Manhattan, as practiced by a few upper executives in the US airline industry, in order to justify what is, to the long-term committed airline staff, a sometimes grotesquely obscene and highly over-bloated (the 'mother' of all understatements) contract for a 'golden parachute'. Its certainly not Their fault if the Board of Directors hires the incompetent business-world equivalent of retards (to closely paraphrase a newspaper editorial at a crewbase info wall), who somehow have no people skills, for a highly labor-intensive business. The point?
Certain politicians, airline CFOs...I see no motivation among them for accuracy and the truth.
Will the Paris International Airshow in August be a fertile opportunity for unanticipated modesty and humility?
Especially for Noel, Dominique and maybe for Jacque. Rumours of sharply increased (taxpayer-funded?) subsidies prevail, for a mysterious, suspected government bail-out. Isn't that it, or was it the debates among the highly unusual dual Franco-German management structure, which motivated an insider to quietly 'leak' the minutes from the EADS meeting to the "Wall Street Journal"? But then again, maybe not. As in one of the commercials (on the Internet) for "Unpimp Your Auto"..."oh, snap!" as quoted by Mr. Peter Stormare.
To paraphrase from one of those commercials, maybe sales of some (non fbw) aircraft will "look like they could fly". And sky-high prices for A-320/319 replacement parts might come down? I have sympathy for the very gouged taxpayers in much of western Europe and Britain, and doubt that British taxes will allow any small citizen rebate after this mess receives just one massive cash infusion. At least British and French taxes are not also paying to clean up and support eastern Germany.
I have no idea about the taxes and fees paid by "freightdog" airlines such as Fedex, which ordered the A-380. The US airlines are being choked by HUGE, exorbitant federal taxes and fees. Fedex's main base in Memphis has at least one runway which already accomodates their TN A.N.G. C-5 Galaxy and sometimes Kallita 747s (jingle bells...).
The politicians here constantly change their stories just before elections (even Hillary Clinton, who voted to go to war in Iraq [uh oh
-the secret is out!], was recently booed by many of her more radical supporters at a rally), but the GOP and Democratic parties often resemble each other. They differ a bit on platforms, but many fail to realize that many US voters are somewhat in the middle. Although history by now, let's not try to forget many possible forebears of Congressman Mica's feisty mentality (right or wrong-at least now): the more courageous, thousands of rednecks who never returned to their temporary beds in England (1942-44), Arnhem or frozen Bastogne foxholes etc. Various books claim that very many were volunteers. About two years ago I rode a rented bicycle/fiets from the main railway station in Maastricht to the resting places of thousands of soldiers a few miles away at Margraten (NL), just by coincidence, and also visited Omaha Beach (we just came back June 1), etc. As a comparison, quiet murmors of protectionist tactics among 'Euro' or British/Irish politicians began (or don't exist) when the Euro currency was born, and the agricultural trade talks (even the unlettered colonials can sometimes find illegally exported copies of "the Economist" magazine in airport giftshops etc)?
It might be just a small bit of political irony here, that German intelligence agents were 'allegedly' on the scene when the invasion started, in Baghdad, Irak, and coordinated with certain US forces. This created some embarassment for certain Politiker zu Hause (at home), among the 'greener' elements of the coalition. The [former?] Aussenminister/Foreign Minister Joschke Fischer 'allegedly' helped to severely beat up a German policeman when he was a mischievous younger lad in a street demonstration, and seriously burn another officer by throwing a Molotov cocktail. Some US politicians sound crazier, (or are) because most on Pprune can read their original words in a language which they understand.
Many politicians, at least in the US, appear to survive by typical lies, forgotten promises, pledges and 'heartfelt sympathies'-or gross distortions, similar characteristics to ( a Chief Financial Officer's) hours of forgetfulness and omissions about basic airline financial situations and outright lies in US bankruptcy court in Manhattan, as practiced by a few upper executives in the US airline industry, in order to justify what is, to the long-term committed airline staff, a sometimes grotesquely obscene and highly over-bloated (the 'mother' of all understatements) contract for a 'golden parachute'. Its certainly not Their fault if the Board of Directors hires the incompetent business-world equivalent of retards (to closely paraphrase a newspaper editorial at a crewbase info wall), who somehow have no people skills, for a highly labor-intensive business. The point?
Certain politicians, airline CFOs...I see no motivation among them for accuracy and the truth.
Will the Paris International Airshow in August be a fertile opportunity for unanticipated modesty and humility?
Especially for Noel, Dominique and maybe for Jacque. Rumours of sharply increased (taxpayer-funded?) subsidies prevail, for a mysterious, suspected government bail-out. Isn't that it, or was it the debates among the highly unusual dual Franco-German management structure, which motivated an insider to quietly 'leak' the minutes from the EADS meeting to the "Wall Street Journal"? But then again, maybe not. As in one of the commercials (on the Internet) for "Unpimp Your Auto"..."oh, snap!" as quoted by Mr. Peter Stormare.
To paraphrase from one of those commercials, maybe sales of some (non fbw) aircraft will "look like they could fly". And sky-high prices for A-320/319 replacement parts might come down? I have sympathy for the very gouged taxpayers in much of western Europe and Britain, and doubt that British taxes will allow any small citizen rebate after this mess receives just one massive cash infusion. At least British and French taxes are not also paying to clean up and support eastern Germany.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 29th Jun 2006 at 04:28.
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Oh, there are taxes alright for the freight folks as well.
An airway bill surcharge is levied on all airfreight shipments, and general aviation pays as well, thru a federal fuel tax.
Everyone pays...but certainly not on the scale as in Europe/UK.
The US airlines are lobbying really hard for a cost-based chargeable to the user ATC system, and of course they would like to see general/corporate aviation pay a whole lot more, even tho the airlines use the majority of ATC services.
Over one million responses have been received about this from the private/corporate aviation sector...so don't look for many changes soon, if at all.
An airway bill surcharge is levied on all airfreight shipments, and general aviation pays as well, thru a federal fuel tax.
Everyone pays...but certainly not on the scale as in Europe/UK.
The US airlines are lobbying really hard for a cost-based chargeable to the user ATC system, and of course they would like to see general/corporate aviation pay a whole lot more, even tho the airlines use the majority of ATC services.
Over one million responses have been received about this from the private/corporate aviation sector...so don't look for many changes soon, if at all.
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I can't believe how the unwitted proposal of an unimaginative US politician can light up such a debate... Some posts are getting borderline xenophobic... 
Aren't we airmen before we are American/French/German/whatever????
I really could care less which side of the Atlantic the A380 is built on... It's a technological marvel, as the B747 and Concorde were in their time... As such I just hope the project materialises and sees the least amount of obstacles on its way...
Aren't we airmen before we are American/French/German/whatever????
I really could care less which side of the Atlantic the A380 is built on... It's a technological marvel, as the B747 and Concorde were in their time... As such I just hope the project materialises and sees the least amount of obstacles on its way...
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Originally Posted by BEagle
On another tack - I was at FRA last week and the queues of folk waiting hours to get through the absurd US security procedures were a poor incentive for anyone ever intending to visit the place.
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Dushan,
No the reason they get longer is because every time some one in the TSA reads another novel they add to the security procedures.!
Like removing shoes, belts, computers, metal reinforced bras, watches, tiepins etc !!
Arriving from Europe to Atlanta you even have to go through this AGAIN just to ride the transit bus to collect your baggage !
Mind you they still ask you that all important and fiendishly probing question
" Do you have anything in your baggage that could be used as a weapon"
Freud eat your heart out
No the reason they get longer is because every time some one in the TSA reads another novel they add to the security procedures.!
Like removing shoes, belts, computers, metal reinforced bras, watches, tiepins etc !!
Arriving from Europe to Atlanta you even have to go through this AGAIN just to ride the transit bus to collect your baggage !
Mind you they still ask you that all important and fiendishly probing question
" Do you have anything in your baggage that could be used as a weapon"
Freud eat your heart out
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Get real! The majority of respondents to this thread do not bother to read the LARGE print, much less any detail, before gushing forth about one or another uninformed personal agenda.
Congressman Mica is described here by one foul-tongued nitwit as "that nutjob", and by another as making an "unwitted proposal of an unimaginative US politician".
What none of you seem to appreciate is the concept that Mr. Mica is the acting "Chairman of the House Aviation Subcommittee" (see page 1, item 1). As manager of the last way-station prior to the Congressional authorisation vote, he is actually the person at the top of the decision tree - for the whole of the US - for spending items like this. This means that the entire process of allocating U.S. Federal funds for aviation goes through his office and oversight - as part of the national budgeting process. His staff, and his staff's staff, and his staff's staff's staff, literally thousands of people working the details, are better informed about the cause and effect of individual funding proposals, and the interacting effect of alternate proposals and competing interests, than any other group on the planet.
So the many who presume to translate this news item into some sort of transatlantic hate crime are very little informed and very greatly confused.
It's rather more like the case where a teenager comes up to dad, wanting to borrow 10,000 euros to buy an auto for his girlfriend. Dad looks up from behind his pile of bills long enough to say - "that doesn't seem a prudent expenditure."
Congressman Mica is described here by one foul-tongued nitwit as "that nutjob", and by another as making an "unwitted proposal of an unimaginative US politician".
What none of you seem to appreciate is the concept that Mr. Mica is the acting "Chairman of the House Aviation Subcommittee" (see page 1, item 1). As manager of the last way-station prior to the Congressional authorisation vote, he is actually the person at the top of the decision tree - for the whole of the US - for spending items like this. This means that the entire process of allocating U.S. Federal funds for aviation goes through his office and oversight - as part of the national budgeting process. His staff, and his staff's staff, and his staff's staff's staff, literally thousands of people working the details, are better informed about the cause and effect of individual funding proposals, and the interacting effect of alternate proposals and competing interests, than any other group on the planet.
So the many who presume to translate this news item into some sort of transatlantic hate crime are very little informed and very greatly confused.
It's rather more like the case where a teenager comes up to dad, wanting to borrow 10,000 euros to buy an auto for his girlfriend. Dad looks up from behind his pile of bills long enough to say - "that doesn't seem a prudent expenditure."
Last edited by arcniz; 29th Jun 2006 at 20:48.
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A prediction .....The A380 will enter service, it will initially fly routes to and from Asia and Europe, then cargo routes around the world (including the USA) and then (eventually) passenger flights to the USA itself. If some US airport improvements are not funded the aircraft will fly to the ones which are, and eventually all the major airports will be forced to improve their facilities. It is called progress. Whether it makes money or not is another matter, but it will happen!
So what if this Mica guy is "Chairman of the House Aviation Subcommittee". We all know how secure such a position is in US politics. Chairman one day, after dinner speeches the next. Ultimately if the President said jump he would ask how high? Just another poodle.
So the real decisions will be made at the top after the various governments involved (EU and US) have battled it out as usual over "protectionism", "subsidies", "open skies" and all the other favourite subjects.
Oh, and the latest variant of the 36-year old Boeing 747 will benefit nicely from the infrastructure improvements around the world introduced for the 380. So plenty of pickings for all concerned.
So what if this Mica guy is "Chairman of the House Aviation Subcommittee". We all know how secure such a position is in US politics. Chairman one day, after dinner speeches the next. Ultimately if the President said jump he would ask how high? Just another poodle.
So the real decisions will be made at the top after the various governments involved (EU and US) have battled it out as usual over "protectionism", "subsidies", "open skies" and all the other favourite subjects.
Oh, and the latest variant of the 36-year old Boeing 747 will benefit nicely from the infrastructure improvements around the world introduced for the 380. So plenty of pickings for all concerned.
<<His staff, and his staff's staff, and his staff's staff's staff, literally thousands of people working the details, are better informed about the cause and effect of individual funding proposals, and the interacting effect of alternate proposals and competing interests, than any other group on the planet. >>
I love satire.
I love satire.
If market forces dictated it, then so be it. Love to see a soft field takeoff in a heavy. Rather not see my tax dollars pay for improvements for the A380 or any new Boeing.
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West Coast, perhaps the hot sun is getting to be too much out there!
If "market forces" were made to pay for everything, your ticket costs would be astronomical, and airline travel would be decimated. Think of the resulting economic fallout worldwide.
In financing most modes of mass transportation, e.g., rails, highways, and seaports,not to mention airports, governments play a large role because they see a strong transportation system as vital to national interests.
Indeed,in today's global economy, transportation is becoming more important daily. Look at the projected growth of the Chinese civil air fleet. Who do you think is building their airports, the concession shop owners?
Don't worry so much about what your taxes finance today.
Why? Some see the biggest threat to the developed economies will be not terrorism, but oil nationalism. If that reaches a tipping point,and significant amounts of oil to the US are cut off, your tax dollars will be entirely insufficient for anything, and your "market forces" will likely leave you living in a tent on San Francisco Bay, wondering what happened.
If you're so still so worried about use of your tax dollars, you might complain in another forum about the Hurricane Katrina and Iraq War tax boondoggles, extractive industry tax breaks, etc. etc. etc.
If "market forces" were made to pay for everything, your ticket costs would be astronomical, and airline travel would be decimated. Think of the resulting economic fallout worldwide.
In financing most modes of mass transportation, e.g., rails, highways, and seaports,not to mention airports, governments play a large role because they see a strong transportation system as vital to national interests.
Indeed,in today's global economy, transportation is becoming more important daily. Look at the projected growth of the Chinese civil air fleet. Who do you think is building their airports, the concession shop owners?
Don't worry so much about what your taxes finance today.
Why? Some see the biggest threat to the developed economies will be not terrorism, but oil nationalism. If that reaches a tipping point,and significant amounts of oil to the US are cut off, your tax dollars will be entirely insufficient for anything, and your "market forces" will likely leave you living in a tent on San Francisco Bay, wondering what happened.
If you're so still so worried about use of your tax dollars, you might complain in another forum about the Hurricane Katrina and Iraq War tax boondoggles, extractive industry tax breaks, etc. etc. etc.