Do328 off runway at Aberdeen

[cavortingcheetah]

Roscoe328 is correct in what he says.
It happened to me at Rome once and although we did manage to stop on the runway, there was not much of it left when we did. What we did was to advance the power levers quite far forward and then retard them and select Beta. But you can only get away with that on a long runway.
Probably well done to the crew because you cannot stop the machine on brakes alone and if you've never had the problem explained to you in the simulator it is not funny at all.
As far as I can remember, as well as flush levers, the problem can arise with attempted over enthusiastic selection of Beta on touchdown. This is in effect can jam the levers, creating a situation in which they are not flush.
One alternative to running off the runway at somewhere where it's a bit short such as LCY used to be is, of course, to take up power and turn the affair into a touch and go. But heaven knows what would happen if you tried that at LCY?
When I returned to my Italian base after the incident in Rome I was given a roasting for not having grounded the aircraft. I had not thought it necessary to do so because the condition is really a design fault rather than a malfunction.
I think that this is not the first time such a situation has arisen with the 328.
I seem to remember that one ran off into the water somewhere a few years ago for much the same reason?
Since the Italian company in question now no longer exists I can say that under no circumstances were they prepared to relay the incident to Dornier for whatever corrective measures or notices to Do328 operators might have been deemed necessary. I thought that they should have done so.

[simfly]

Originally Posted by youngskywalker

flaps were down. A/c touched down late, wet runway.

Where did you get this info from then? Runway was damp and as already said, the aircraft could have landed half way down the runway and still stopped well in time. It was at least 1000 feet past the end so I think if it were a "late touchdown" event it would have touched down on the piano keys-at the end!

[ROSCO328]

Brakes, anti-skid, hydraulics, gear, flaps maybe.

None of these problems would cause a 328 to over-run a 6000ft runway believe me reverse alone will bring this a/c to a hault no problem! Besides the Emergency brake runs off its own accumulator which is in a seperate area from the main system and the chances of both having a leak are very slim. I will stick with my earlier comments regards jammed levers as any 328 driver will know it is easily done and easily sorted on a long runway but on a short runway you are garenteed to s t urself!!!

[Captskyboy]

I agree with ROSSCO328.

I was told it was jamed power leavers. Had a couple myself in the Dornier. Its most likely to happen whe the FO is flying due to the angle he has to pull. If the levers are not entirely flush they WILL jam. The natural action is to pull some more jamming them even more, making it very difficult to unjam them.

In that situation the engines are still prducing a lot of power and almost impossible to stop on brakes alone.

The only correct procedure as soon as a jammed condition is noticed, is to move them forward and then calmly back to detent and then lift the latches and try again. On a short rwy like lcy the procedure is to use brute force and showe them ou tof the jam and go around. The aircraft will then quickly leap in to the air......

[Cactus99]

Ok then, so it seems that jammed levers is a known problem with the 328's that happens from time to time.

With the above assumption in mind, is this scenario not practiced in the sim when the guys are doing the type rating? I would have thought there would be an immediate procedure to follow as soon as a jammed levers situation is identified on landing....

[Captskyboy]

You absolutely correct CACTUS.

It is a known problem and it was well covered and demonstrated when I did my typerating. It is a design flaw that should have been corrected long ago...

And there is an immidiate procedure. MAX POWER and GO AROUND....

[Joetom]

Why has this problem not been fixed.???
.
Appears old nick is watching these 328s land hoping to get some new blood.!!!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I doubt if there is a single Do328 pilot who has not jammed the thrust levers at some stage in his/her flying career. I have done it myself and seen it happen on many occasions including relatively short runways like Southampton (1700'?) and London City (1200'?). It is recoverable but you have to act quickly. ROSCO328'S analysis is very accurate. It is difficult to explain without a diagram but to obtain reverse thrust there are 3 distinct and sequential actions required - levers to idle with the palms of your hands, reach over the top of the throttles to pull up the bars with your fingers and finally use the palm of your hand to engage reverse. Failure to follow this exact method can and does result in the power levers being jammed with forward power on. If you jam the throttles, almost invariably by squeezing the 2 bars at the front of the levers before the levers are in idle, then the only way back is to push the levers about half way forward (and by so doing briefly increase power) and then start the whole process again. The natural and overwhelming desire of most pilots when faced with this scenario is to either pull harder upwards on the little bars or backwards on the power levers until reverse is obtained. Alas, if you perform either or both of these actions, then disaster can ensue. Normally a captain with any experience will use the time honoured words, 'I have control' and immediately recover the situation on behalf of his now shaken First Officer! As a little aside, when I first flew the Airbus, I looked back incredulously at the dreadful system I had become used to on the Dornier 328. The Airbus has exactly the same system but it is brilliantly engineered and I have never once see it jam. Vive La France and all that...

Incidentally, the only fatal accident I know of involving the Do328 was an almost indentical one involving a runway overrun in Italy somewhere. The aircraft, with levers jammed as discussed, went off the runway and into the water beyond and was completely submerged in water up until the tail. The main survivors, from my recollection, were a ladies' swimming team who all managed to keep their heads as the aircraft filled with water. They all got out the rear emergency exit and swam to safety. Tragically, a number (about 9 I think but cannot remember exactly) of less aquatically-inclined individuals drowned, including one of the flight attendants.

The truth is that the Do328, magnificent as it is in so many ways, should never have been certified with this feature that is so potentially lethal. Also, with the demise of the parent company some years ago, there was very little that would ever be done to rectify this totally unacceptable feature. It is very reminiscent of the Rolls Royce Dart engines associated with HS 748s, F27s and Heralds whereby you could easily burn out engines to destruction in a few seconds by incorrect use of the levers. At least in that case, it was only extremely expensive and incredibly embarrassing. In the case of the Dornier it is potentially fatal.

[ROSCO328]

It was also well covered on my type rating, but that is because my company has lots of guys who know the 328 inside out and are able to pass info like this on! You wont find info like that printed in any manual.

[RatherBeFlying]

Common to the MDW overrun, there is a problem getting past the interlocks to reverse (well at least out of flight idle). After the Italian fatal, one would think the certification authorities would have sorted out the jamming

I'm sure the SW crew wished they had had their overrun where there was lots of unobstructed room past the runway.

[youngskywalker]

Where did you get this info from then? Runway was damp and as already said, the aircraft could have landed half way down the runway and still stopped well in time. It was at least 1000 feet past the end so I think if it were a "late touchdown" event it would have touched down on the piano keys-at the end!

The runway was wet, trust me

[Tosh McCaber]

I was at the airport- saw the 328 passing overhead, but not the incident. So far as I remember, at the time, the runway was not wet.
Secondly, and much more importantly, no matter whether the parent company went bust or not, it is an absolute disgrace that a known potentially lethal problem on an aircraft has not mandatorily been rectified. This appears to be something that has been recognised by Dornier pilots, so why has the CAA nor the airlines flying Dorniers done anthing about it? Why have the guys at the sharp end not insisted on having this problem rectified? Scared of Mangement? Or, it won't happen to me? It did to the Italian 328.

Dangerous.

[unwiseowl]

Not enough MOR's

[WHBM]

Accident that NSF refers to:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0225-0&lang=en

Seems that one happened on a 10,000 foot runway. As one who regularly is a passenger on the 328 into London City (a tad shorter) I do wonder with interest what the CAA or AAIB are going to say about this incident at Aberdeen and the comments here about such a design feature.

[chuks]

Our operation also experienced this jamming of the power levers but it was simply put down to mishandling.

It's a rather unfortunate design in that you're most likely to jam the levers when you are a bit anxious and rushing things. All you have to do is feel that 'click' of the levers hitting the idle stop first before going for reverse; rushing it is when the trouble can come, I think. From what I have been told, yes, the harder you pull the worse it jams. That's when the need for lateral thought comes in, pushing forward to get the damn things to come back. Oddly, we never did practice this in the sim, although that sounds like a real good idea. We were just told, 'Don't do it this way,' and it was left at that.

That said, the airplane's brakes are good, plus it has anti-skid, so that heavy braking should sort your troubles out. That or just making a timely decision to firewall it and do a touch-and-go, perhaps? Anything like this, unless you personally are in the exact situation under discussion, well, it's almost useless to say, 'I would have done...'

As far as that goes, I remember one unlucky fellah running a Twin Otter off the end of a short runway when he couldn't get into reverse. He had forgotten to put the props into fine pitch, of course, but then instead of just standing on the brakes or perhaps firewalling it he wasted time wondering what was wrong with the system instead of dealing with the consequences. It can be very humbling to see just how quickly one runs out of time in a situation such as this.

I don't think it's a case of this aircraft having a serious design flaw, though. If anything, I would say it's over-engineered in the true German manner, something that contributed to its commercial failure.

The very similar but heavier 328Jet has no reverse at all, just a slightly bigger set of flaps and (carbon) brakes. It can be rather interesting to watch the brake temps shoot up and then slowly come back down after a landing.

[youngskywalker]

I don't suppose it really made much difference in the end, but the runway WAS... 'wet wet wet'. As was the 350 meters of used grass.

[ROSCO328]

chuks

Sorry my friend but I have to disagree with you on a couple of things. Firstly there is NO "click" when you bring power levers back to flight idle, the only click you will get is in the opposite direction from GI to FI when the latches drop and lock.

Secondly the brakes on the 328 prop are NOT good and if you tried stopping with the brakes alone I'm pretty sure your gonna get brake fade before you come to a hault.

Last but not least Your putting yourself in even more of a dangerous situation by as you say "firewalling" the engines! why? A handfull of power will take you back into the air like a scalded cat during almost any stage of a touch and go! Look after the engines and they will look after you!!

[chuks]

Point taken, I suppose, but you certainly feel the throttles reach the stop at the end of their normal travel (which can give a sort of 'click,' loosely described and which you can usefully take for your cue to lift those nasty little latches).

It all depends on what sort of view you are getting in the forward sector in your time of trouble but there can definitely come a time when 'firewalling' the throttles might just be the way to go. Proper advance planning should prevent your ever having to do that, of course, but we do live in a rather imperfect world, last time I checked.

What happens in the de-brief, when the Chief Engineer comes in with the QADR readouts and you can see the boys down on the hangar floor getting busy with a double engine change, well... at least you, your crew and the pax will have survived your little episode of brain-fade and you probably didn't really like your job all that much anyway when you came right down to it!

From a safety point of view it can sometimes be beneficial not to worry so much about looking after the engines and concentrate on looking after Number One and by extension everyone else. Just think of that Air Florida crew and the way they never did try to exceed the 'correct' thrust settings on their ill-fated takeoff from Washington National.

I once got into a big discussion in the bar (where else?) with some rather pious drip about my moral obligations to the pax, the American Flag, crunchy peanut butter and I don't know what all.

I simply pointed out that since I was sat up there in the part of the airplane that usually was the first to reach the scene of the accident then we could forget all the fine sentiments and higher thoughts and let simple self-preservation take over in extremis. 'Why do you suppose,' I asked, 'it is that they don't give us ejection seats in civil airliners?' while miming someone reaching down to trigger same and rapidly depart the scene of impending disaster. Hey, that guy in the right seat always did want to advance to command; here is his big chance!

'That's not funny! was the usual, boring response.

'Well, that's okay then, because I'm not joking!' And I wasn't, in a way. Don't let anything get in the way of taking that last, best chance to avoid an accident, if it comes to that is all that I am saying. So far, so good, in that I never have had to put this lateral thinking very often to the test but no one reading this can put his hand on his heart and say that he never will paint himself into a corner one of these days.

(For any of of the PC brigade reading this, the use of the masculine in the above may be taken to include the feminine.)

[dontpickit]

UK AAIB special bulletin:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...00__tf_csb.cfm

[non iron]

Dontpicket.
Thankyou for the link, l wonder how often it happened, if at all, as a glitch that cleared, and went unactioned. Not alot of time on type, just 400hrs, but new to me.