Age 60 Hearing For Ex-Air Canada Pilot
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I am left seat on the 777 but no way I want to coninue past age 56 (mand. ret. our company)
Let's make some room for the junior guys.
If you cannot let go....head to China or wherever where you can get a few more years in.
It is almost like all the minorities in this country who start ranting and raving about discrimination every time they want something to be done for their personal gain.
Let's make some room for the junior guys.
If you cannot let go....head to China or wherever where you can get a few more years in.
It is almost like all the minorities in this country who start ranting and raving about discrimination every time they want something to be done for their personal gain.
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Nice for you
Mercanary Ali :
I worked so hard on my post and it seems you either did not read it or that you have no rebuttal.
Now your argument for extending all our careers negatively is that I might learn something from you oh great and knowledgeable swami !
Just curious when you upgraded and what your background was. I am open to learning from anyone. If you have not passed all your vital knowledge on by 60 then what were you waiting for and what makes you think that the 50-55 year olds cannot pick up the training baton and run with it !!
Please re-read my post and give me your thoughts.
Cheers
Five
I worked so hard on my post and it seems you either did not read it or that you have no rebuttal.
Now your argument for extending all our careers negatively is that I might learn something from you oh great and knowledgeable swami !
Just curious when you upgraded and what your background was. I am open to learning from anyone. If you have not passed all your vital knowledge on by 60 then what were you waiting for and what makes you think that the 50-55 year olds cannot pick up the training baton and run with it !!
Please re-read my post and give me your thoughts.
Cheers
Five
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This is all very interesting reading but aviation is not the only affected vocation. The increase in retirement age is coming to most industries, like it or not. Pilots do not enjoy special consideration because of some notion of being a part of the elite section of society. There are many proffessions where there will be similar discontent from those who wish to ascend the stairs of promotion at a greater rate. It is not feasable to expect an individual to reject an offer that improves their employment contract (if a greater retirement age is to them an improvement) on the basis that another may have to wait longer for promotion. Working for a living is not always so easy, and finding a good job can be very difficult, I will not give it up until I have to, or want to. At the same time I enjoy to help anyone on the ladder that I can, but, do not expect me to jump off so you can pass.
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Legislation vs Contract
Bug Crusher:
No one is disputing that the government and industry will most likely allow the retirement age to be extended. It is happening in India and elsewhere in Asia.
However at most airlines the age extension still needs to be voted into pilot contracts. It is at this stage that we must remember that it is not a good thing for anyone below that of a two or three year Captain.
So, you might want to extend but if the majority of your co-workers do not, then the contract should reflect that. Especially if that contracted extension is detrimental to the majority.
And by the way we are not "passing" you but only moving to the rank you were at when you finished your signed contract. If retirement gets extended it will be you who is "blocking" and some of us will not achieve the rank or scale that you did.
Cheers
No one is disputing that the government and industry will most likely allow the retirement age to be extended. It is happening in India and elsewhere in Asia.
However at most airlines the age extension still needs to be voted into pilot contracts. It is at this stage that we must remember that it is not a good thing for anyone below that of a two or three year Captain.
So, you might want to extend but if the majority of your co-workers do not, then the contract should reflect that. Especially if that contracted extension is detrimental to the majority.
And by the way we are not "passing" you but only moving to the rank you were at when you finished your signed contract. If retirement gets extended it will be you who is "blocking" and some of us will not achieve the rank or scale that you did.
Cheers
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Nowhere in my contract does it state that I will retire, at any age. My employer has, on occasion, mentioned that they would be pleased if I were to continue for many years yet. I do not work for a large airline, nor have I ever wanted to, but I do understand and sympathise with the sentiments being aired here. There are still others in the wings waiting to take my place. But, realisticly, "us old farts" are not going to throw ourselves on the sword to make way for younger folk, why should we? And why should we be weeded out for another to take our place and then one day in the future agree to continue working until 65. And now tell me that won't happen. You all might as well get used to it, 65 is coming, it makes economic sense. And as long as pilots are employee's, they will be responding to job offer's and, as such, will have the opportunity to accept or decline whats on offer. If the contract for a co-worker is the cause of your discontent, I am sure you will have redress through the courts or arbitration if you have been harmed in any way by this. Me, I am just going to continue on, probably to 65, maybe longer who knows. Be happy
Thread Starter
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We know that there are at present two bills before the U.S. Senate that would have the effect of overruling the F.A.A. rules. Have any other nations been tempted to introduce similar legislation? And have any of the "legacy" carriers embraced the changes yet, either in fact, or in prospect?
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POSTED AT 4:19 PM EDT ON 02/07/06
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Skies less friendly if you're over 60, AC pilots complain
BRENT JANG
Globe and Mail Update
A former Air Canada first officer wants the carrier to raise the mandatory retirement age for pilots to 65 from 60, part of a growing chorus in the cockpit that's accusing the airline of engaging in age discrimination.
“I should still be flying for Air Canada,” George Vilven said from his home in Airdrie, Alta., just north of Calgary.
Mr. Vilven, 62, said his “cognitive and motor skills” as the second pilot at the controls were in top form when Air Canada forced him into retirement after he turned 60 in August, 2003.
His complaint is scheduled to be presented in January in Ottawa to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, which has set aside 10 days to hear the case.
A group of pilots who belong to the Fly Past 60 Coalition is supporting Mr. Vilven's retire-at-65 campaign. Coalition members include Raymond Hall, an Air Canada pilot who turns 57 on Wednesday, and several other pilots who either are approaching 60 or recently turned 60.
Mr. Hall, who joined Air Canada 33 years ago, said he will have no choice but to leave the airline in July, 2009, unless the tribunal finds that the carrier is discriminating against its pilots on the basis of age.
Air Canada's current retirement policy is “contrary to his desire to exercise his right to remain employed,” the Fly Past 60 Coalition said in a recent submission to the tribunal.
Physical examinations every six months are already required for Air Canada pilots over 40, and that process would ensure that pilots above 60 stay at the top of their game, the coalition maintains. Regular “proficiency checks” for all pilots also ensure safety, it adds.
The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the United Nations, may recommend this November that the retirement age for pilots be increased to 65 from 60, as long as one of the pilots in a two-pilot crew is younger than 60.
“The current policy has been in place since the 1960s and needs to be revisited,” Mr. Hall said in an interview.
Air Canada maintains that its retirement policy doesn't contravene the Canadian Human Rights Act. The country's flag carrier dismissed comparisons with smaller airlines that allow pilots to work under certain conditions beyond 60. For instance, Air Canada Jazz and WestJet Airlines Ltd. allow pilots to work only on domestic routes from 60 to 65, but those involve shorter hauls on average than Air Canada's extensive international network.
As well, Air Canada points out that major U.S. airlines continue to abide by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration's age-60 retirement rule for pilots while numerous foreign carriers have retirement ages ranging between 55 and 60. “Air Canada is a major international, intercontinental airline whose pilots must meet the requirements of the countries to which they fly,” the airline argues.
The Air Canada Pilots Association, which represents 3,100 members, conducted an April survey that indicated a sizable majority of the respondents want to keep the mandatory retirement age at 60. Of those who voted, 1,382 pilots supported the current system and 458 voted against it - a 3-to-1 margin in favour of the status quo.
ACPA's master executive council supports Air Canada's stance of defending the existing retirement policy. “ACPA believes it is a benefit for pilots to be able to retire at age 60 with a full pension,” the union said in a statement. “Retirees are not required to stop working entirely upon retirement. Many move on to other occupations, such as a flying instructor with Air Canada.”
The union also argues that junior-level pilots are able to climb the seniority ladder faster when senior-level pilots retire early. The more experienced the pilot, the better the aircraft, routes, schedules and pay.
But the Fly Past 60 Coalition insists that individual rights are being trampled. Air Canada captains who belong to the coalition include Grant Foster and David Powell-Williams, both 59. Recently retired Air Canada captains seeking to be reinstated include Kenwood Green, George Iddon and Ray Thwaites, all 60.
If the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal sides with Mr. Vilven, the original complainant, “it is conceivable that some persons recently forced to retire may be allowed to come back to work in their previous capacity,” the coalition said.
Print this article E-mail this article Comments (5) Text Size
Skies less friendly if you're over 60, AC pilots complain
BRENT JANG
Globe and Mail Update
A former Air Canada first officer wants the carrier to raise the mandatory retirement age for pilots to 65 from 60, part of a growing chorus in the cockpit that's accusing the airline of engaging in age discrimination.
“I should still be flying for Air Canada,” George Vilven said from his home in Airdrie, Alta., just north of Calgary.
Mr. Vilven, 62, said his “cognitive and motor skills” as the second pilot at the controls were in top form when Air Canada forced him into retirement after he turned 60 in August, 2003.
His complaint is scheduled to be presented in January in Ottawa to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, which has set aside 10 days to hear the case.
A group of pilots who belong to the Fly Past 60 Coalition is supporting Mr. Vilven's retire-at-65 campaign. Coalition members include Raymond Hall, an Air Canada pilot who turns 57 on Wednesday, and several other pilots who either are approaching 60 or recently turned 60.
Mr. Hall, who joined Air Canada 33 years ago, said he will have no choice but to leave the airline in July, 2009, unless the tribunal finds that the carrier is discriminating against its pilots on the basis of age.
Air Canada's current retirement policy is “contrary to his desire to exercise his right to remain employed,” the Fly Past 60 Coalition said in a recent submission to the tribunal.
Physical examinations every six months are already required for Air Canada pilots over 40, and that process would ensure that pilots above 60 stay at the top of their game, the coalition maintains. Regular “proficiency checks” for all pilots also ensure safety, it adds.
The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the United Nations, may recommend this November that the retirement age for pilots be increased to 65 from 60, as long as one of the pilots in a two-pilot crew is younger than 60.
“The current policy has been in place since the 1960s and needs to be revisited,” Mr. Hall said in an interview.
Air Canada maintains that its retirement policy doesn't contravene the Canadian Human Rights Act. The country's flag carrier dismissed comparisons with smaller airlines that allow pilots to work under certain conditions beyond 60. For instance, Air Canada Jazz and WestJet Airlines Ltd. allow pilots to work only on domestic routes from 60 to 65, but those involve shorter hauls on average than Air Canada's extensive international network.
As well, Air Canada points out that major U.S. airlines continue to abide by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration's age-60 retirement rule for pilots while numerous foreign carriers have retirement ages ranging between 55 and 60. “Air Canada is a major international, intercontinental airline whose pilots must meet the requirements of the countries to which they fly,” the airline argues.
The Air Canada Pilots Association, which represents 3,100 members, conducted an April survey that indicated a sizable majority of the respondents want to keep the mandatory retirement age at 60. Of those who voted, 1,382 pilots supported the current system and 458 voted against it - a 3-to-1 margin in favour of the status quo.
ACPA's master executive council supports Air Canada's stance of defending the existing retirement policy. “ACPA believes it is a benefit for pilots to be able to retire at age 60 with a full pension,” the union said in a statement. “Retirees are not required to stop working entirely upon retirement. Many move on to other occupations, such as a flying instructor with Air Canada.”
The union also argues that junior-level pilots are able to climb the seniority ladder faster when senior-level pilots retire early. The more experienced the pilot, the better the aircraft, routes, schedules and pay.
But the Fly Past 60 Coalition insists that individual rights are being trampled. Air Canada captains who belong to the coalition include Grant Foster and David Powell-Williams, both 59. Recently retired Air Canada captains seeking to be reinstated include Kenwood Green, George Iddon and Ray Thwaites, all 60.
If the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal sides with Mr. Vilven, the original complainant, “it is conceivable that some persons recently forced to retire may be allowed to come back to work in their previous capacity,” the coalition said.
