Cathay A340 engine surges on take off at LHR
the lunatic fringe
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I've yet to fly an aircraft, including a 4 engined jet, that can dump fuel. Dumping fuel is one of aviation's great myths,
Last time I looked on my 747-400 (Yesterday) Fuel dumping was still available.
do THAT again, and you're OFF the fleet
l337
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Golf Bravo Zulu, I read with interest your statement. I had the good fortune to visit London Air Traffic Control Centre in 1994 and one of the discussions with the senior ops controller centred around this very topic. His words were when an a/c loses 50% or more of it's thrust then they expect you to preface your next transmission with "Mayday Mayday Mayday ......... " and, if appropriate at a later time downgrade to Pan status.
On the 747 if we lose 2 then it is a mayday ..... on the twin ????? Damn shame if you whispered Pan after the loss of # 1 and proceed to do a lazy circuit only to find # 2 wind down as a result of, for arguements sake, fuel contamination.
What do you think?
.....and with regards Capt Clarets comment ... we jettison fuel is what he is trying to get accross..... fire bombers dump their load .... amongst others!
On the 747 if we lose 2 then it is a mayday ..... on the twin ????? Damn shame if you whispered Pan after the loss of # 1 and proceed to do a lazy circuit only to find # 2 wind down as a result of, for arguements sake, fuel contamination.
What do you think?
.....and with regards Capt Clarets comment ... we jettison fuel is what he is trying to get accross..... fire bombers dump their load .... amongst others!
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411A
You are a charmer indeed. Do you believe in training or chopping? "Do that again and you are off the fleet" How about showing the guy how it's ment to be done, and what is expected of him rather than threatening him??!! You must be a nightmare to fly with (heard of CRM???) I am a "young guy" as you put it (27 years old, 7 years airline), and I have seen some absolute howlers in the sim from "gentlemen of more mature years." Things I wouldn't dream of doing. We can and DO ALL make mistakes, without proper TRAINING (not shouting and or threatening) how the hell do you expect someone to perform?
Capt Claret
The B767-300ER I fly is fitted with fuel dump.
MOR
As I said I fly the B757/767, a twin. If I have an engine rundown during flight, in particular on take off, then for me it is a Mayday. How do I know what caused it? More importantly, how do I know that what caused the first to fail, will not cause the second to f ail? ie Fuel contamination. Better safe than sorry as my old gran used to say!
You are a charmer indeed. Do you believe in training or chopping? "Do that again and you are off the fleet" How about showing the guy how it's ment to be done, and what is expected of him rather than threatening him??!! You must be a nightmare to fly with (heard of CRM???) I am a "young guy" as you put it (27 years old, 7 years airline), and I have seen some absolute howlers in the sim from "gentlemen of more mature years." Things I wouldn't dream of doing. We can and DO ALL make mistakes, without proper TRAINING (not shouting and or threatening) how the hell do you expect someone to perform?
Capt Claret
The B767-300ER I fly is fitted with fuel dump.
MOR
As I said I fly the B757/767, a twin. If I have an engine rundown during flight, in particular on take off, then for me it is a Mayday. How do I know what caused it? More importantly, how do I know that what caused the first to fail, will not cause the second to f ail? ie Fuel contamination. Better safe than sorry as my old gran used to say!
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Originally Posted by fire wall
Golf Bravo Zulu, I read with interest your statement. I had the good fortune to visit London Air Traffic Control Centre in 1994 and one of the discussions with the senior ops controller centred around this very topic. His words were when an a/c loses 50% or more of it's thrust then they expect you to preface your next transmission with "Mayday Mayday Mayday ......... " and, if appropriate at a later time downgrade to Pan status.
On the 747 if we lose 2 then it is a mayday ..... on the twin ????? Damn shame if you whispered Pan after the loss of # 1 and proceed to do a lazy circuit only to find # 2 wind down as a result of, for arguements sake, fuel contamination.
What do you think?
On the 747 if we lose 2 then it is a mayday ..... on the twin ????? Damn shame if you whispered Pan after the loss of # 1 and proceed to do a lazy circuit only to find # 2 wind down as a result of, for arguements sake, fuel contamination.
What do you think?
Sounds like a classic surge as shown in the training material
discussed in this link
http://www.fromtheflightdeck.com/
The material is contained under the button link Engine training
If you would like a CD copy contact this person
[email protected]
discussed in this link
http://www.fromtheflightdeck.com/
The material is contained under the button link Engine training
If you would like a CD copy contact this person
[email protected]
Just another number
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The engine surge is also discussed by the US NTSB
www.ntsb.gov/aviation/jet_engine_problems.pdf
Airclues
www.ntsb.gov/aviation/jet_engine_problems.pdf
Airclues
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Careful what you go around telling people, MOR
Originally Posted by MOR
An engine failure is, by definition, not a MAYDAY call.... It is always a PAN
In places like these, about the only way to get ATC's attention and be sure they know you have a problem and prioritise you accordingly is to declare a MAYDAY.
Thread Starter
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Thanks to those of you who replied to my questions about the nature of the incident. Particularly the links from lomapaseo and Captain Airclues.
I didn't really intend this to become the bitch fest that is has, I was shocked and excited by what I had witnessed as I believe, from talking to flight crew colleagues, it's quite rare.
Cheers all,
tsb
I didn't really intend this to become the bitch fest that is has, I was shocked and excited by what I had witnessed as I believe, from talking to flight crew colleagues, it's quite rare.
Cheers all,
tsb
Funny that declaring an emergency is thought to be equivalent to panicking and rushing procedures. So that's the difference between having an engine failure, calling PAN and sorting things out versus having an engine failure, calling MAYDAY and sorting things out! Yeah, sure. 
Yet another sign of the brains of the Old Dinosaur already fading away.
Yet another sign of the brains of the Old Dinosaur already fading away.
Bottums Up
I admit my previous post on this thread was somewhat obtuse.
The 4 engined jet was a BAe146. I know, some don't consider it to be a real jet.
What I was trying to do, albeit spectacularly unsuccessfully, was to highlight the numerous press reports of, "the stricken jet flew around dumping fuel", when many, I suspect most types can't.
The 4 engined jet was a BAe146. I know, some don't consider it to be a real jet.
What I was trying to do, albeit spectacularly unsuccessfully, was to highlight the numerous press reports of, "the stricken jet flew around dumping fuel", when many, I suspect most types can't.
Naive question:
Regardless of whether the plane could dump fuel while turning around to land at LHR, is it possible they didn't think it was a good idea to dump fuel over London at a relatively low altitude?
Regardless of whether the plane could dump fuel while turning around to land at LHR, is it possible they didn't think it was a good idea to dump fuel over London at a relatively low altitude?
ex-Tanker
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Timewasters
About 3% of this thread is relevant.
The rest of it is misinformation, disinformation and ego scratching.
What a waste of time and space.
In answer to a couple of the relevant questions:
Engine popping / surging occurs fairly regularly - can be for
various reasons including bird strike / FOD ingestion, failure
of FCU / ECAM and icing amongst others. It is dealt with by
reducing thrust or shutting down in extreme cases but either
way you will have a performance loss.
Performance loss on take off is quite different from performance
loss in cruise and needs careful and practised handling to get
it right.
FC.
The rest of it is misinformation, disinformation and ego scratching.
What a waste of time and space.
In answer to a couple of the relevant questions:
Engine popping / surging occurs fairly regularly - can be for
various reasons including bird strike / FOD ingestion, failure
of FCU / ECAM and icing amongst others. It is dealt with by
reducing thrust or shutting down in extreme cases but either
way you will have a performance loss.
Performance loss on take off is quite different from performance
loss in cruise and needs careful and practised handling to get
it right.
FC.