China Airlines FOCA(episode 1)
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They are not alone...
There was an A310 crash in Lagos, Nigeria some time ago that involved (to my best recollection) the FO flying, the use of the shorter and slipperier of the two runways in rain and deactivated thurst reversers.
The approach was flown well above Vref and the aircraft went off the departure end, ripping its nosegear off and ending up with the tail stuck way up in the air for everyone to wonder at until they could drag it away. It was a write-off after one of those classical 'chain of events' accidents.
Most interesting was what one could read about this in the local papers. It was all praise to the heroic crew who dared to land in impossible conditions and saved the lives of all aboard! No one bothered to think about that a bit and ask why they didn't apply proper procedures or even divert and wait for better weather. You could call this yet another example of a 'culture clash' between the way people in the First World are taught to operate and the way some people in the Third World think.
Not to be unfair, some accidents in the States, such as that crash in Little Rock, Arkansas, seem similar to this one cited. But at least you don't read in the papers about how brave the crew were to take chances.
I was fascinated to read, in an article about the then head of Daimler-Benz, about how this titan of the business world had bullied his crew into landing somewhere or other when the weather was really bad. The point of the article was that Mr Roughy-Toughy got to where he was going when all the other CEOs were stuck at some outstation, thanks to the sheer force of his personality. I suppose if they had crashed then it would have been an article about the tragic loss of a great leader due to the incompetence of his crew.
The approach was flown well above Vref and the aircraft went off the departure end, ripping its nosegear off and ending up with the tail stuck way up in the air for everyone to wonder at until they could drag it away. It was a write-off after one of those classical 'chain of events' accidents.
Most interesting was what one could read about this in the local papers. It was all praise to the heroic crew who dared to land in impossible conditions and saved the lives of all aboard! No one bothered to think about that a bit and ask why they didn't apply proper procedures or even divert and wait for better weather. You could call this yet another example of a 'culture clash' between the way people in the First World are taught to operate and the way some people in the Third World think.
Not to be unfair, some accidents in the States, such as that crash in Little Rock, Arkansas, seem similar to this one cited. But at least you don't read in the papers about how brave the crew were to take chances.
I was fascinated to read, in an article about the then head of Daimler-Benz, about how this titan of the business world had bullied his crew into landing somewhere or other when the weather was really bad. The point of the article was that Mr Roughy-Toughy got to where he was going when all the other CEOs were stuck at some outstation, thanks to the sheer force of his personality. I suppose if they had crashed then it would have been an article about the tragic loss of a great leader due to the incompetence of his crew.
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Originally Posted by chuks
The point of the article was that Mr Roughy-Toughy got to where he was going when all the other CEOs were stuck at some outstation, thanks to the sheer force of his personality.
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No, it was a race or an exposition or something where all the top neddies were expected to be there at a certain time. Cue major loss of face if someone didn't show up. Pushing the crew into taking big chances paid off by this guy being there on time, as promised, and never mind what the weather was doing.
I remember once when we were waiting, waiting at Myrtle Beach, S.C. for the Charlotte weather to come up above minimums. It was just morning fog but the rules stated that we couldn't go until we had good weather at our destination. This suit came up, very huffy, to demand, no, make that DEMAND to know when we should be leaving. To my look of mild inquiry he told me that he was catching a flight to CHICAGO!
The name of this big city was meant to knock my hayseed butt into a corner in shock and awe, I suppose but all I told him was that, weatherwise, 'Man proposes and God disposes.' He gave me a very odd look and then left me alone, which was fine with me, actually. Soon enough the fog cleared and we were on our way.
As my old instructor used to say, 'Better to lose face than to lose *rse.'
I remember once when we were waiting, waiting at Myrtle Beach, S.C. for the Charlotte weather to come up above minimums. It was just morning fog but the rules stated that we couldn't go until we had good weather at our destination. This suit came up, very huffy, to demand, no, make that DEMAND to know when we should be leaving. To my look of mild inquiry he told me that he was catching a flight to CHICAGO!
The name of this big city was meant to knock my hayseed butt into a corner in shock and awe, I suppose but all I told him was that, weatherwise, 'Man proposes and God disposes.' He gave me a very odd look and then left me alone, which was fine with me, actually. Soon enough the fog cleared and we were on our way.
As my old instructor used to say, 'Better to lose face than to lose *rse.'
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Whaledog: Ok the Fo screws up. you prasie the aircraft,
WHERE THE HECK WAS THE CAPTAIN?????
This is a very good question. At any rate, the alpha floor on the A300-600 is a stall protection feature, not an unusual attitude protection at low altitude. It would not have "saved the day" in this case, if the crew had persisted. So yes, where was the Captain? It's really fishy when both pilots are having a bad day at the same time...
WHERE THE HECK WAS THE CAPTAIN?????
This is a very good question. At any rate, the alpha floor on the A300-600 is a stall protection feature, not an unusual attitude protection at low altitude. It would not have "saved the day" in this case, if the crew had persisted. So yes, where was the Captain? It's really fishy when both pilots are having a bad day at the same time...
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And what are the rules in Italy? In the US, it is not ATC that determines when an aircraft may commence approach, it is the pilot-in-command. ATC providees the weather info, and the pilot determines, under the myriad rules they may operate under, if he is legal to begin an approach. Again, I do not know the rules in Italy, but saying the accident is ATC's fault because they let the aircraft land is quite a stretch, I'd say. May as well say it's Milan's fault because they built an airport - or Cessna's fault becasue they built an airplane.
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>>My stupid comment on the A-300 was out of sheer ignorance, somehow believing that the A-300 had no such protections, as the 757 (which I flew, similar 'generation') had none.
Actually, I think there is at least one "protection" on the '75, if the leading edge slats are at the takeoff position and a stall is detected, the LE slats automatically extend to the landing position. The usual caveat, this doesn't work with alternate flap extension.
>>By the way, Airbus doesn't need to invade to be sold....
Yep, and the 'Bus has been crash tested a lot more often as well...
Actually, I think there is at least one "protection" on the '75, if the leading edge slats are at the takeoff position and a stall is detected, the LE slats automatically extend to the landing position. The usual caveat, this doesn't work with alternate flap extension.
>>By the way, Airbus doesn't need to invade to be sold....
Yep, and the 'Bus has been crash tested a lot more often as well...
