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Winding up time
Come on all, this thread has gone on long enough and has lost its bearing ? The guys in BA ops did the best they could in the time available and it was a good result. Well done to EVERYONE concerned both flight and ground crew.
Good night
Good night
Evertonian
With all due respect Mike, it's annoying to hear that word "savings" coming into any discussion about safety. (I understand that its not necessarily your personal view, you are just relaying the story)
You have a fire warning indicator. I don't see why there should be any second guessing it. If it illuminates, take the necessary action. If one fire warning indicator isn't enough (and if I am not mistaken, I believe it to take readings from a number of sources...I could be wrong...was once before) then how many is enough? Will adding a multiple approach to fire warnings actually help, or will it just mean that it creates additional work, especially if there is a fault in only one system.
I'm not Tech crew or an engineer (which should be obvious by now) but I just think that I'd want my crew, in an emergency, to do a cursory check that it's not a faulty illumination & then get on with getting it down. No questions asked. No, "If only you flew an extra 15mins to a better equipped airport" rubbish. GET IT DOWN!
IMHO.
You have a fire warning indicator. I don't see why there should be any second guessing it. If it illuminates, take the necessary action. If one fire warning indicator isn't enough (and if I am not mistaken, I believe it to take readings from a number of sources...I could be wrong...was once before) then how many is enough? Will adding a multiple approach to fire warnings actually help, or will it just mean that it creates additional work, especially if there is a fault in only one system.
I'm not Tech crew or an engineer (which should be obvious by now) but I just think that I'd want my crew, in an emergency, to do a cursory check that it's not a faulty illumination & then get on with getting it down. No questions asked. No, "If only you flew an extra 15mins to a better equipped airport" rubbish. GET IT DOWN!
IMHO.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Originally Posted by hetfield
On A320 once we had to use the bottles for the rear hold during cruise. Fortunetly it was a false warning. To my surprise returnflight according MEL was o.k. even with hold loaded (no flammable staff).
regards
regards
Anyway, this incident might go some way to explaining why my bag took two days to join me after my trip ex-T1 last Friday...
Well done to all involved, following SR111 I rather prefer the get-it-down-ASAP approach exemplified by this and the BA016 incident ex-YSSY a couple of years ago.
Evertonian
I'm sorry if I gave the impression of being critical of you Mike. Certainly not my intention & I do understand your point.
I just think that the pointy end is crammed with all sorts of safety & alerting systems that information overload must become a factor. Years have been spent training crew to automatically accept a TCAS instruction, for example, regardless of their opinion/experience/instinct etc. Whilst I know we're talking seconds here, as against minutes, surely the reactions should be similar. Automated systems tell you one thing, you react in one way & if time permits, perhaps then you can verify via backup. (Which is probably your point)
I just think that the pointy end is crammed with all sorts of safety & alerting systems that information overload must become a factor. Years have been spent training crew to automatically accept a TCAS instruction, for example, regardless of their opinion/experience/instinct etc. Whilst I know we're talking seconds here, as against minutes, surely the reactions should be similar. Automated systems tell you one thing, you react in one way & if time permits, perhaps then you can verify via backup. (Which is probably your point)
SImon Calder's article - Independent, 24th April
Moving back to the original topic - did anyone else catch Simon Calder's piece in Saturday's Independent ( I think) in which he dissected the diversion and the recovery operation, step by step? He seemed, to my eyes anyway, to use the whole episode as another opportunity to have a whinge at BA.
edited to add I meant the 22nd but can't alter the header....
edited to add I meant the 22nd but can't alter the header....
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Originally Posted by wiggy
Apologies for another post but I'm struggling with a clunky wi-fi set up.
The article is at http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/article359282.exe
The article is at http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/article359282.exe
Jordan
Last edited by Jordan D; 24th Apr 2006 at 21:23. Reason: Wiggy & my post merged - seperated out by quote.
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I usually have a lot of respct for Calder.
Not this time. Sounds like journalistic point-scoring for getting knocked back last time he asked for an upgrade.
As he himself said - no point sending another jumbo - so next-best option - a gaggle of Scarebusses.
Not this time. Sounds like journalistic point-scoring for getting knocked back last time he asked for an upgrade.
As he himself said - no point sending another jumbo - so next-best option - a gaggle of Scarebusses.
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Originally Posted by Jordan D
Apologies for another post but I'm struggling with a clunky wi-fi set up.
The article is at http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/article359282.exe
I have a lot of respect for Calder, having heard his ramblings on many a BBC Radio show, and read his columns as they pop up across the press, so this one really is out of left field - I haven't heard him have a go at BA before. As such, can I suggest we don't have a pop at him, other than to suggest he sticks to talking about travel he normally does?
Jordan
The article is at http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/article359282.exe
I have a lot of respect for Calder, having heard his ramblings on many a BBC Radio show, and read his columns as they pop up across the press, so this one really is out of left field - I haven't heard him have a go at BA before. As such, can I suggest we don't have a pop at him, other than to suggest he sticks to talking about travel he normally does?
Jordan
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What a pointless article from Calder! He just seems to slag off BA without making any alternative suggestions - was he really suggesting the passengers went on the train to Berlin?
Also Uralsk mmay have been a military airfield once but is now a commercial public international airport (sort of). I think Astraeus fly 757s there on some oil charter.
I think he is also confusing military personnel with immigration/customs staff.
He also states that the 'bags' were flown out on the '747' but the luggage went out on a freighter??? Bit confused by that.
Of course Calder is perfectly entitled to his opinion on the operation but I think he should be very sure of his facts first.
Also Uralsk mmay have been a military airfield once but is now a commercial public international airport (sort of). I think Astraeus fly 757s there on some oil charter.
I think he is also confusing military personnel with immigration/customs staff.
He also states that the 'bags' were flown out on the '747' but the luggage went out on a freighter??? Bit confused by that.
Of course Calder is perfectly entitled to his opinion on the operation but I think he should be very sure of his facts first.
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This is consistent with Calder's normal approach of unquestioning plugging for Ryanair and Easyjet, alongside nitpicking criticism of BA for the most trivial things. I recall him slating BA for being mean with refreshment vouchers during the strike last year - but never a mention of the kind of compensation you'd get from Ryanair in the same circs.
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For those interested in the performance issue of taking off from Uralsk, my friend at BA has done some research.
The 2400m available at Uralsk (with no obstacles to affect the climb out and close to sea level) is similar to Cardiff TOR at 2352m. On a standard day with no wind at 15C, the 744-400 RTOW is over 330T. Given a ZFW normally around 240T that allows for 90T of fuel.
However, as the aircraft was empty of pax and freight/baggage and just had crew, the ZFW was probably less than 200T. This would allow 130T of fuel or more than 12 hours flying time - not limiting in anyones books!
Seems the main issue is the runway PCN which I believe is a theoretical calculation based on the runway materials used and its sub-structure etc. Of course this has little/no influence on a diversion for a fire. Presumably it's more related to runway maintenance and service life issues.
My source has also said that BA have downgraded Uralsk from an 'adequate' to 'emergency only' diversion airfield based on their recent experience. This is mainly to do with the available ground equipment and passenger facilities. For a fire it's still on the list but maybe considered inappropriate for lesser incidents.
The 2400m available at Uralsk (with no obstacles to affect the climb out and close to sea level) is similar to Cardiff TOR at 2352m. On a standard day with no wind at 15C, the 744-400 RTOW is over 330T. Given a ZFW normally around 240T that allows for 90T of fuel.
However, as the aircraft was empty of pax and freight/baggage and just had crew, the ZFW was probably less than 200T. This would allow 130T of fuel or more than 12 hours flying time - not limiting in anyones books!
Seems the main issue is the runway PCN which I believe is a theoretical calculation based on the runway materials used and its sub-structure etc. Of course this has little/no influence on a diversion for a fire. Presumably it's more related to runway maintenance and service life issues.
My source has also said that BA have downgraded Uralsk from an 'adequate' to 'emergency only' diversion airfield based on their recent experience. This is mainly to do with the available ground equipment and passenger facilities. For a fire it's still on the list but maybe considered inappropriate for lesser incidents.
If things were getting too hot over Siberia and no runway was immediately available, I'd be looking for a frozen lake. Korean Airlines landed a B-707 on one after a missile hit.
How you keep a 747 load of pax warm after the fire goes out in the middle of a Siberian winter is an interesting question
How you keep a 747 load of pax warm after the fire goes out in the middle of a Siberian winter is an interesting question
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With all the recent accidents with in-flight fires - Valuejet in MIA, Swissair over Nova Scotia and some others there is a renewed emphasis in the USA to get the jet on the ground RFN (right f##king now).
My last sim events have been with that sort of scenario and we are encouraged to put the aircraft on the ground without ANY delay. The BA guys did the right thing for sure.
My last sim events have been with that sort of scenario and we are encouraged to put the aircraft on the ground without ANY delay. The BA guys did the right thing for sure.
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Originally Posted by JumpAhead
My source has also said that BA have downgraded Uralsk from an 'adequate' to 'emergency only' diversion airfield based on their recent experience.
The point is however, that this WAS an Emergency, and they used the available facility approved for the purpose.
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Not trying to be picky but the book I have been shown certainly lists Uralsk as 'adequate'. It's not a chart but a big thick book apparently taken on all long-haul flights.
I agree with your sentiment though that an 'emergency' runway was all that was needed.
I agree with your sentiment though that an 'emergency' runway was all that was needed.
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Originally Posted by cactusbusdrvr
With all the recent accidents with in-flight fires - Valuejet in MIA, Swissair over Nova Scotia and some others there is a renewed emphasis in the USA to get the jet on the ground RFN (right f##king now).
My last sim events have been with that sort of scenario and we are encouraged to put the aircraft on the ground without ANY delay. The BA guys did the right thing for sure.
My last sim events have been with that sort of scenario and we are encouraged to put the aircraft on the ground without ANY delay. The BA guys did the right thing for sure.
As for any PR problems - actually IMHO most of the punters will love having been caught up in "an emergency"; it'll be dinner party talk for years and their audience will be impressed that BA put on "rescue flights" to come get 'em.
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Originally Posted by JumpAhead
What a pointless article from Calder! He just seems to slag off BA without making any alternative suggestions - was he really suggesting the passengers went on the train to Berlin?
Shame Calder's thinking ain't so coherent.
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Just managed to get online and read Mr Calder's article - I don't know where he does his inaccurate research "THE ONLY scheduled service from Uralsk flies twice a week to the Kazakh capital, Astana, on an airline that has yet to acquire the cachet of Virgin Atlantic or BA: "Aircompany Kokshetau". I was in Uralsk yesterday getting off the daily flight from Aktau/Atyrau, Air Astana a 757 twice a week to Almaty and until recently they had a weekly flight to Schiphol - which was replaced by the Astreaus charter.
As a SLF I would have been quite happy to get on the ground no matter where it was - except for the Frozen Lake - not too many of those around this time of year. Uralsk is not that bad, true it's got a bumpy runway, but at least they have fixed the toilets - the dead rat has gone....
Poka
As a SLF I would have been quite happy to get on the ground no matter where it was - except for the Frozen Lake - not too many of those around this time of year. Uralsk is not that bad, true it's got a bumpy runway, but at least they have fixed the toilets - the dead rat has gone....
Poka