lost mobile
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IMO the mobile phone was a FOD hazard in the cockpit so abort justified!
A recent interferance assessment on critical hospital eqpt suggest this is limited to x metres but x metres would encompass most of an aircraft in flight so ban on mobile phone use in flight is legit
A recent interferance assessment on critical hospital eqpt suggest this is limited to x metres but x metres would encompass most of an aircraft in flight so ban on mobile phone use in flight is legit
ViatorCuriosus,
there's whole project teams working at the European Telecommiúnications Standards Institute (ETSI) and the Electronic Communications Committee of the European Conference of Posts and Telecommunications (CEPT) on GSM in aircraft. Various engineers don't see how the proosals so far won't take out the bottom few DME channels, but Airbus, for one, don't appear to think this a problem.......
Having got a system that works from the 'phone viewpoint, the aircraft certification people still have to be convinced about the safety aspects, though.
there's whole project teams working at the European Telecommiúnications Standards Institute (ETSI) and the Electronic Communications Committee of the European Conference of Posts and Telecommunications (CEPT) on GSM in aircraft. Various engineers don't see how the proosals so far won't take out the bottom few DME channels, but Airbus, for one, don't appear to think this a problem.......
Having got a system that works from the 'phone viewpoint, the aircraft certification people still have to be convinced about the safety aspects, though.
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Brain Fade,
On at least one type of aircraft that I fly, there are two CAS messages where the first crew action on receiving them is to find out who's phone is still switched on - so maybe it's not "a load of waffle"
On at least one type of aircraft that I fly, there are two CAS messages where the first crew action on receiving them is to find out who's phone is still switched on - so maybe it's not "a load of waffle"
Apart from the airmanship aspects of potential interference with on board equipment and loose articles in the cockpit, is there not an issue of legality?
As I understand it, any transmission from an aircraft must be from equipment which is approved and specified in the a/c Radio Licence. As the mobile phone is neither approved or listed in the Cert of Approval of Radio Installation then went it pulses the transmission is "illegal" whilst in flight.
As I understand it, any transmission from an aircraft must be from equipment which is approved and specified in the a/c Radio Licence. As the mobile phone is neither approved or listed in the Cert of Approval of Radio Installation then went it pulses the transmission is "illegal" whilst in flight.
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FOD on a flight deck is a big no - no, end of.
Ok so the phone itself does not constitute a safety hazard by purely being switched on. What then happens during flight say coming in to land with the phone not being located before take off?
Hypothetical situation:-
...aircraft on final approach experiences heavy turbulence 200ft from landing, lost phone decides to pop its head up from wherever it is hiding and gets stuck behind a control surface (rudder peddles for example)... pilot unable to maintain control and major aircraft incident occurs resulting in heavy loss of life.
IT COULD HAPPEN
Would you therefore have the cavalier attitude of 'it will be ok, the phone can’t cause any harm from being switched on?'
I hope not
Ok so the phone itself does not constitute a safety hazard by purely being switched on. What then happens during flight say coming in to land with the phone not being located before take off?
Hypothetical situation:-
...aircraft on final approach experiences heavy turbulence 200ft from landing, lost phone decides to pop its head up from wherever it is hiding and gets stuck behind a control surface (rudder peddles for example)... pilot unable to maintain control and major aircraft incident occurs resulting in heavy loss of life.
IT COULD HAPPEN
Would you therefore have the cavalier attitude of 'it will be ok, the phone can’t cause any harm from being switched on?'
I hope not
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Telstar
From your reference, Page 3 section 2, "Analysis"
....the phone slid forward on the carpet....
From your reference, Page 3 section 2, "Analysis"
and the low coefficient of friction between the hard surface of the mobile phone case and the carpet, facilitated the movement forward of the phone.
....the phone slid forward on the carpet....
Sims Fly Virtually
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As you know, I am not a pilot. Know a bit about "RF" radiation and radios, and about what goes on up front.
Lost "FOD" on the flight deck is, as said before, a no-no. Be it a phone, a book, a Mars Bar, the FO's Gameboy, or the Skipper's girly-mag. It can jam moving parts, it can cause shorts.
Regarding interference with vital functions - "there is very little evidence of a problem" - possibly because most mobiles are off. There is also very little evidence that both pilots wandering out of their seats during autopilot operations is dangerous! Would you do it? (Aw, come on, there's no problem if we both go for a leak at the same time - the autopilot always works")
The mobile phone is a radio transmitter. All radio transmitters (and even recievers!) emit frequencies that they are not designed to; sometimes at a very low level, sometimes not. Mobiles are designed to be low enough in this respect to avoid commercial problems (like your home hi-fi or a blue-tooth device) but are not tested, or certified, to the standards that I like to see used on safety-vital operations such as aircraft, especially when taking off or landing.
We have a couple of posts here from pilots who have seen mobiles degrading instruments or communications.
If in doubt - switch the bluudy thing off! I get really p*ssed out here in the "sandy lands",where the culture seems to be "do it if you please, as long as you don't get caught" (like running red lights when there's not a cop car around!)
Perhaps airport security might have to start confiscating the batteries from the things, if people can't abide by the rules?
I'm not a "mobile hater" - I rely on mine and can't think how I got along (especially in business) without it. But it gets turned off at the top of the jet-way, and on again in the same place at the other end - unless there's a delay and the Captain (i.e. responsible person in charge) tells us specifically that we can make calls while taxiing. He's The Boss
Lost "FOD" on the flight deck is, as said before, a no-no. Be it a phone, a book, a Mars Bar, the FO's Gameboy, or the Skipper's girly-mag. It can jam moving parts, it can cause shorts.
Regarding interference with vital functions - "there is very little evidence of a problem" - possibly because most mobiles are off. There is also very little evidence that both pilots wandering out of their seats during autopilot operations is dangerous! Would you do it? (Aw, come on, there's no problem if we both go for a leak at the same time - the autopilot always works")
The mobile phone is a radio transmitter. All radio transmitters (and even recievers!) emit frequencies that they are not designed to; sometimes at a very low level, sometimes not. Mobiles are designed to be low enough in this respect to avoid commercial problems (like your home hi-fi or a blue-tooth device) but are not tested, or certified, to the standards that I like to see used on safety-vital operations such as aircraft, especially when taking off or landing.
We have a couple of posts here from pilots who have seen mobiles degrading instruments or communications.
If in doubt - switch the bluudy thing off! I get really p*ssed out here in the "sandy lands",where the culture seems to be "do it if you please, as long as you don't get caught" (like running red lights when there's not a cop car around!)
Perhaps airport security might have to start confiscating the batteries from the things, if people can't abide by the rules?
I'm not a "mobile hater" - I rely on mine and can't think how I got along (especially in business) without it. But it gets turned off at the top of the jet-way, and on again in the same place at the other end - unless there's a delay and the Captain (i.e. responsible person in charge) tells us specifically that we can make calls while taxiing. He's The Boss
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Originally Posted by brain fade
What a load of woffle!
I've left my 'phone' aka UHF radio on loads of times. Makes no difference at all on the ERJ-145. And thats on the flight deck!
I've left my 'phone' aka UHF radio on loads of times. Makes no difference at all on the ERJ-145. And thats on the flight deck!
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Apparently the mobile had found it's way down behind the rudder pedals, and according to engineers there is a passage under the centre pedestal that ends up in the e and e bay. That's where it was found. Personally I would not be happy to to go with any foreign object in the e&e bay.
Good call
Good call
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When showing people around the cockpit of military jets the visitors are asked to empty their pockets for the reasons mentioned above.
I once showed a famous South African golfer around a pointy grey jet and duly asked the question about stuff in pockets.
"Oh, yes, hold on" and he reached into his back pocket and pulled out the fattest billfold of £50s I've ever seen and handed it to his caddie for safe keeping...
I once showed a famous South African golfer around a pointy grey jet and duly asked the question about stuff in pockets.
"Oh, yes, hold on" and he reached into his back pocket and pulled out the fattest billfold of £50s I've ever seen and handed it to his caddie for safe keeping...
It would have surely been quicker to have popped down to that festering sh****le know as 'Donnie' and borrowed a couple of the 'hoodies' who hang around the streets of that wretched dump. Shove them in the cockpit and tell them that the phone is theirs if they can find it... Would have taken about thirty seconds
Mind you, they'd probably have had the IFE screens, hubcaps and most of the bar as well.....
Serious? Moi??
Actually this was a clear arse-looticle hazard and there was obviously nothing for it but to ground the a/c until the phone was recovered.
Mind you, they'd probably have had the IFE screens, hubcaps and most of the bar as well.....
Serious? Moi??
Actually this was a clear arse-looticle hazard and there was obviously nothing for it but to ground the a/c until the phone was recovered.
Last edited by BEagle; 14th Apr 2006 at 09:32.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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All in all, I think we are agreed, anybody who knows anything about aeroplanes would confirm it was a good call. But what should be examined here is this:
a pilot made a perfectly normal mistake, he dropped his phone. He was then submitted to the dreaded, horror inducing Pprune Court Martial where his actions were dissected and the resulting events analysed and inspected for fault! Can we now assume that he made a mistake, he did not try and hide it and made a good call that the event should be rectified, and possibly stop further discussion? Apart from wasting perfectly good bandwidth, it must be causing him intense embarrassment for making the correct and honest call. We don't need deep analysis of a simple event and a close call, because if we do, by God, half those idiots who run the companies where my money is invested should be opened up totally to scrutiny and made responsible for some of the daft business decisions that they make. One thinks of Ailing and what he did to BA for one. Doctors don't eternally (and publicly) scrutinise the operations that go wrong, or the surgeon who butchered and killed my mother in law in a relatively simple heart operation would have been publicly exposed.
The chap made the right call, let's bury it!
a pilot made a perfectly normal mistake, he dropped his phone. He was then submitted to the dreaded, horror inducing Pprune Court Martial where his actions were dissected and the resulting events analysed and inspected for fault! Can we now assume that he made a mistake, he did not try and hide it and made a good call that the event should be rectified, and possibly stop further discussion? Apart from wasting perfectly good bandwidth, it must be causing him intense embarrassment for making the correct and honest call. We don't need deep analysis of a simple event and a close call, because if we do, by God, half those idiots who run the companies where my money is invested should be opened up totally to scrutiny and made responsible for some of the daft business decisions that they make. One thinks of Ailing and what he did to BA for one. Doctors don't eternally (and publicly) scrutinise the operations that go wrong, or the surgeon who butchered and killed my mother in law in a relatively simple heart operation would have been publicly exposed.
The chap made the right call, let's bury it!
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Quite right Rainboe. What does surprise me, greatly, is the number of 'aviation savvy' commentators here who see the missing phone only as a possible source of radio interference. That's the least of the worries. A slippery loose article is somewhere in the cockpit. Why should the pilot be embarrassed to ground the aircraft - until the phone was found it had just gone seriously tech.
Spot on decision from him/her. No embarrassment called for and, I'm sure, no side-ways looks from the head shed. As they say, s**t happens.
Spot on decision from him/her. No embarrassment called for and, I'm sure, no side-ways looks from the head shed. As they say, s**t happens.
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Many years ago when people used to smoke pipes in the cockpit a certain pilot I know dropped his pipe on the floor in flight. It slid past the rudder pedals and wangled its way into the radome. He spoke to the ground engineer on arrival who opened up the appropriate panels.... They found the pipe and someones reading specs, another pipe, several pens, sunglasses, lighter all coated in dust, fluff and filth..... Obviously no-one bothered to report the other stuff!! No mobile phones then though.
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Just to throw another spanner into the works, it seems all the SLF and a few of us seem to concentrate on the flight deck when it comes to interference from mobile phones. Those folk sat 50ft away down the back think that they are far enough away for it not to matter. What is behind and above those lovely plastic walls they are sat right next to, or below that "clean" carpet? A hell of a lot of pipes, wires, aerials, switches etc. I dont know if a phone could interfere with any of that but my point is; no one ever thinks of it.
Good call, by the way Tfly captain.
6
Good call, by the way Tfly captain.
6
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Just another point of view on this. My friend and his wife were on this flight to Doncaster from AGP. The pilot did indeed apologise to pax about the fact he had lost his mobile. He did explain that this was a safety issue due to the fact that the mobile may have fallen down in a gap where important controls need to be kept clear of loose items and apologised prefusely for being so stupid and explained how foolish he was but the situation had to be resolved.
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...and apologised prefusely for being so stupid and explained how foolish he was.
Thomsonfly issued a press statement before speaking to him (he was on leave the next day) and confused the reason for why the phone had to be found; incorrectly stating that it was switched on.
They swapped the pax to a 757 which came in whilst the search continued, in order to minimise the delay, he operated the Malaga which the 757 was due to operate a little later.
A couple of things worth noting.
1. The plane shouldn't have and didn't move until the phone was found.
2. He and the company did everything to keep the pax informed and came up with a contingency plan.
3. The pax weren't 'stranded' in the terminal, they went back into the terminal after it became evident that it was going to take another hour or so to put the aircraft back together even if the phone had been found imminently.
Good job mate in my book. How many pax and other crew have never, ever dropped their mobile phone? He was just unlucky where it bounced.....
Mind you, he did keep his sense of humour and phoned the engineers on their mobile just before they pushed back for Malage and opened up with "you're not going to believe this......" the reply contained many expletives before he informed them that his phone was none the worse for wear and thanks for finding it!!!
As pointed out previously, better to get your 15 minutes of fame in for losing your mobile rather than landing short due to jammed controls!!!
honey
Judging by your start date on pprune, is it possible you know the skipper even better than you admit?!!
Whatever, it was a good call, there have been worse delays caused by far less. I know for a fact that mobiles in pax hold baggage have caused spurious cargo fire warnings when unshielded connecting wire has been installed causing at least one emergency diversion to my personal knowledge.
A curse on the things.
Whatever, it was a good call, there have been worse delays caused by far less. I know for a fact that mobiles in pax hold baggage have caused spurious cargo fire warnings when unshielded connecting wire has been installed causing at least one emergency diversion to my personal knowledge.
A curse on the things.
