BA to make U-Turn in their Business plan
Guest
Posts: n/a
DPIT,
Well, it's nice to see some objective analysis here. I agree with the broad brush of Rod's strategy-- the question of yield and cost control is clearly critical. This is especially true in central functions which are pure overhead until they leverage offsetting business benefit from their knowledge / insight / experience.
Doing a similar job to you for another "British Institution", I was wondering how much scope you think there is for an increased proportion of salary (both flight crew and ground crew) being based on profit share, given the highly cyclical nature of the sector? Please feel free to teflon that one, but I'd be interested in your views.
On another issue, the in-sourcing of added-value services sounds like a good answer: I assume (not having worked in the sector) that the major lessors will have a number of "approved" suppliers of engineering to work on their leades jets. If you can sort the contracts out, this is the begining of a source of fee-income which whilst not recession proof, is a little more recession resistant than the hauling of premium class pax.
Interesting stuff!
Cheers
Tobbes
Well, it's nice to see some objective analysis here. I agree with the broad brush of Rod's strategy-- the question of yield and cost control is clearly critical. This is especially true in central functions which are pure overhead until they leverage offsetting business benefit from their knowledge / insight / experience.
Doing a similar job to you for another "British Institution", I was wondering how much scope you think there is for an increased proportion of salary (both flight crew and ground crew) being based on profit share, given the highly cyclical nature of the sector? Please feel free to teflon that one, but I'd be interested in your views.
On another issue, the in-sourcing of added-value services sounds like a good answer: I assume (not having worked in the sector) that the major lessors will have a number of "approved" suppliers of engineering to work on their leades jets. If you can sort the contracts out, this is the begining of a source of fee-income which whilst not recession proof, is a little more recession resistant than the hauling of premium class pax.
Interesting stuff!
Cheers
Tobbes
Guest
Posts: n/a
BOAC,
Thank you for saying that, and yes, would like to meet you some day on the flight deck.
I think there is a realisation at the airline that costs must be cut, in order for BA to surivive in the future. I would imagine that the likely place for cost cutting would be the management side. This in my opinion is the correct move.
Cost cutting has been identified as a 'must do' by Rod, and hence you will see some action.
Thank you for saying that, and yes, would like to meet you some day on the flight deck.
I think there is a realisation at the airline that costs must be cut, in order for BA to surivive in the future. I would imagine that the likely place for cost cutting would be the management side. This in my opinion is the correct move.
Cost cutting has been identified as a 'must do' by Rod, and hence you will see some action.
Guest
Posts: n/a
When BA announced their profits they did not mention that engineering had saved 66 million pounds.
I still beleive that rod eddington wanting to pull out of gatwick is a mistake.
Mr Branston and Mr stellios easy peasy are chomping at the bit for the slots that BAs departure will create!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I learned about flying from that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I still beleive that rod eddington wanting to pull out of gatwick is a mistake.
Mr Branston and Mr stellios easy peasy are chomping at the bit for the slots that BAs departure will create!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I learned about flying from that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hangarpilot,
I do not think that you will see BA pull out of LGW. They may slim down the number of routes (ie increase frequency on others by dropping some routes), but I do not see them pulling out of LGW all together. I think that LGW is one of the more likely places to expand capacity in the SE (evidence the planning application for home near LGW turned down by Prescott on the grounds of 'future airport expansion'. If this is the case, BA will want to maintain a presence there.
With regard to the cost savings by your department, this is an example of what I have been going on about. This is something to be proud of, and should be communicated throughout BA, so that you guys can receive the congratulations you deserve. Communication is key...something, as I have said before, BA is NOT good at!!
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 21 June 2001).]
I do not think that you will see BA pull out of LGW. They may slim down the number of routes (ie increase frequency on others by dropping some routes), but I do not see them pulling out of LGW all together. I think that LGW is one of the more likely places to expand capacity in the SE (evidence the planning application for home near LGW turned down by Prescott on the grounds of 'future airport expansion'. If this is the case, BA will want to maintain a presence there.
With regard to the cost savings by your department, this is an example of what I have been going on about. This is something to be proud of, and should be communicated throughout BA, so that you guys can receive the congratulations you deserve. Communication is key...something, as I have said before, BA is NOT good at!!
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 21 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have a tiny arguement on the pen-pushing side.
The report on Capt Pprunes comments notes a fall in profits of perhaps £100 million. Simply slimming down management or cutting pilots salaries will only save a few million here. Really for BA to improve each depart from Pen pushers to ground ops needs an improvement. For those of you in there you know best where this can come from, I believe BA is a reasonably slim airline, take a peek at the comparisons of economics with a similar airlines such as Lufthansa and KLM, you'll know pretty quick then how slim BA is. LH are reviewing their profits at the moment despite having probably one of the best MD's on the planet.
Finally, when is BA going to take over EI? NOw there's a place you could do some serious sliming down of heads!
Regards,
FF
The report on Capt Pprunes comments notes a fall in profits of perhaps £100 million. Simply slimming down management or cutting pilots salaries will only save a few million here. Really for BA to improve each depart from Pen pushers to ground ops needs an improvement. For those of you in there you know best where this can come from, I believe BA is a reasonably slim airline, take a peek at the comparisons of economics with a similar airlines such as Lufthansa and KLM, you'll know pretty quick then how slim BA is. LH are reviewing their profits at the moment despite having probably one of the best MD's on the planet.
Finally, when is BA going to take over EI? NOw there's a place you could do some serious sliming down of heads!
Regards,
FF
Guest
Posts: n/a
On the subject of cheaper fares from BA I had to go to Barcelona and had to go immediately from LPL with Easyjet due to a family bereavement.I paid £150 to get there and the same to return.So much for bargain flights!
Why don't BA adopt the yield system that Southwest and others use rather than have fixed discounted rates mid week as now advertised??They could then take on Easy and Ryanair head to head.They are making big profits.Lets have more competition.
Why don't BA adopt the yield system that Southwest and others use rather than have fixed discounted rates mid week as now advertised??They could then take on Easy and Ryanair head to head.They are making big profits.Lets have more competition.
Guest
Posts: n/a
If you want to know where some of the cost savings can be made DPIT, just look at what's left of CityFlyer Express.
British Midland (now part of Gatwick Mangling) allegedly charge us £400 for a turn round at the South Terminal. The same guys who drive the push back tug also load the baggage and connect up the ground power etc. And when they're late at the A/C due to staff shortages or cock-ups, they are at least out of breath from hurrying when they do turn up and (as contracters to a customer) are apologetic for the inconvenience.
Compare that with the North Terminal where the ground handling staff are all unionised BA employees. I believe the cost price per turnaround (to CFE) is nearer £1400, and when there's no one at the A/C on time (for the same reasons usually, staff shortages - manic slot days etc.), nobody comes running. They just stroll up nonchalantly and you rarely get an apology when they do show up. Try also calling Speedbird North to remind them to send a dispatcher out at STD minus 20 and listen to the frosty response over the radio.
There was no-one to connect a GPU up one day last week, but a CFE Engineer turned up and began helping attend to it (it needed manhandling closer)... after he had called someone in BA engineering for permission in case he started a strike. Another engineer told us last week that he'd chocked one of our RJs on arrival when there was no-one else there to do it, only to be told by a BA ground handler who witnessed him do it, never to do his job for him ever again or there'd be some industrial trouble. He was gobsmacked... They weren't there to do it in the first place! Anyway, now he'll sit and watch (while the schedule goes to pot) in future.
I know that unions exist to protect their workers from unscrupulus management (which BA would problably demonstrate rather quickly without some reining in), but these people have got to learn that we all work for the same company and need to pull in the same direction. Cant they see that their own share options are being damaged by this kind of petty "jobsworth" mentality. Too many little empires within BA methinks.
Rant over... But the major excesses within BA are not the Pilots' terms and conditions.
British Midland (now part of Gatwick Mangling) allegedly charge us £400 for a turn round at the South Terminal. The same guys who drive the push back tug also load the baggage and connect up the ground power etc. And when they're late at the A/C due to staff shortages or cock-ups, they are at least out of breath from hurrying when they do turn up and (as contracters to a customer) are apologetic for the inconvenience.
Compare that with the North Terminal where the ground handling staff are all unionised BA employees. I believe the cost price per turnaround (to CFE) is nearer £1400, and when there's no one at the A/C on time (for the same reasons usually, staff shortages - manic slot days etc.), nobody comes running. They just stroll up nonchalantly and you rarely get an apology when they do show up. Try also calling Speedbird North to remind them to send a dispatcher out at STD minus 20 and listen to the frosty response over the radio.
There was no-one to connect a GPU up one day last week, but a CFE Engineer turned up and began helping attend to it (it needed manhandling closer)... after he had called someone in BA engineering for permission in case he started a strike. Another engineer told us last week that he'd chocked one of our RJs on arrival when there was no-one else there to do it, only to be told by a BA ground handler who witnessed him do it, never to do his job for him ever again or there'd be some industrial trouble. He was gobsmacked... They weren't there to do it in the first place! Anyway, now he'll sit and watch (while the schedule goes to pot) in future.
I know that unions exist to protect their workers from unscrupulus management (which BA would problably demonstrate rather quickly without some reining in), but these people have got to learn that we all work for the same company and need to pull in the same direction. Cant they see that their own share options are being damaged by this kind of petty "jobsworth" mentality. Too many little empires within BA methinks.
Rant over... But the major excesses within BA are not the Pilots' terms and conditions.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Nearly Nigel,
Thank you for that example. I think you have touched on a very real problem within BA, not just in the department that you have highlighted.
There are a lot of very real private armies, and these need to be sorted out for the great good of the company.
I agree, we are all working for the same team!!
Thank you for that example. I think you have touched on a very real problem within BA, not just in the department that you have highlighted.
There are a lot of very real private armies, and these need to be sorted out for the great good of the company.
I agree, we are all working for the same team!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
DPIT
At no point did I refer to you as a "beancounter". I do not consider that my post was childish. I was merely pointing out where, in my opinion, the necessary savings should be found
To those who wish to found the DPIT fan club, I would recommend that you peruse http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For.../014382-2.html
I particularly find our new hero's opinions on the value of Uniteds pilots interesting.
Maybe management should evolve a seniority system so that they can understand how some of his other suggestions would be impractical to pilots. (skipping from company to company in search of a better deal)
At no point did I refer to you as a "beancounter". I do not consider that my post was childish. I was merely pointing out where, in my opinion, the necessary savings should be found
To those who wish to found the DPIT fan club, I would recommend that you peruse http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For.../014382-2.html
I particularly find our new hero's opinions on the value of Uniteds pilots interesting.
Maybe management should evolve a seniority system so that they can understand how some of his other suggestions would be impractical to pilots. (skipping from company to company in search of a better deal)
Guest
Posts: n/a
MrUppity,
I appologise, for remarking that you stated I was a "beancounter", and also if I inferred that your post was childish. This is the way I read it, and if it was not intended like this, then I was wrong; sorry! Although, I do think making references to a DPIT fanclub is a little absurd.
With regard to my comments regarding the UA pilots on the JMC thread, I completely stand by them! If I remember correctly, a Senior Captain has now had his pay increase to just over $210,000 PA. I was merely stating that this in my opinion, is a little high. Would it not be better to bring the bottom of the industry, the commuter pilots, (who, are quite frankly, WELL underpayed), upto to a descent level, rather than give huge pay increases to mainline pilots? I was actually shocked when I heard how much they were payed; I earned more as an Intern than an average pilot at one of the regionals!!! I was also trying to make a comparison with the UK, if I am correct, this is much higher than an equivalent pilot here.
I DO understand the system concerning seniority. However, isn't it one of those old industry practices that need to be changed? If airlines know that a big dissincentive to move is the seniority rules, then wont it give more bargaining power to the airlines? If such rules were down away with, it may make the market for pilots more flexible, and thus, will probably have the effect of raising salaries?
Just some thoughts here...I can imagine that it is both impracticle and not wanted...just some thoughts!!! Please, tell me your thoughts on this matter, I would be interested to learn.
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 25 June 2001).]
I appologise, for remarking that you stated I was a "beancounter", and also if I inferred that your post was childish. This is the way I read it, and if it was not intended like this, then I was wrong; sorry! Although, I do think making references to a DPIT fanclub is a little absurd.
With regard to my comments regarding the UA pilots on the JMC thread, I completely stand by them! If I remember correctly, a Senior Captain has now had his pay increase to just over $210,000 PA. I was merely stating that this in my opinion, is a little high. Would it not be better to bring the bottom of the industry, the commuter pilots, (who, are quite frankly, WELL underpayed), upto to a descent level, rather than give huge pay increases to mainline pilots? I was actually shocked when I heard how much they were payed; I earned more as an Intern than an average pilot at one of the regionals!!! I was also trying to make a comparison with the UK, if I am correct, this is much higher than an equivalent pilot here.
I DO understand the system concerning seniority. However, isn't it one of those old industry practices that need to be changed? If airlines know that a big dissincentive to move is the seniority rules, then wont it give more bargaining power to the airlines? If such rules were down away with, it may make the market for pilots more flexible, and thus, will probably have the effect of raising salaries?
Just some thoughts here...I can imagine that it is both impracticle and not wanted...just some thoughts!!! Please, tell me your thoughts on this matter, I would be interested to learn.
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 25 June 2001).]
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DPIT looking at the time your post was made surely you should have been ensconced behind your desk in Waterworld or the Compost centre, if so are you tipping our profit share down the pan by surfing the net in company time...tut tut please assure me your on a day off today!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Rather indicative of the Waterworld residents I think. We do this sort of thing in our own time and our own equipment, using our own money. You do it in BA's time on BA's equipment and paid for by us. And don't give us 0700, most of us had already done half a day's work by then.
You views are welcome (even as a counter arguement) but do it in your own time and stop squandering my profit-share.
Pontius
You views are welcome (even as a counter arguement) but do it in your own time and stop squandering my profit-share.
Pontius
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree with Pontious,
Naughty, naughty DPIT and a bit daft to admit it as well.
By the way DPIT I posted some figures re pax per employee (on JMC pay thread) in reponse to your posting. Just wondered whether you have had time to read it and comment.
Please don't be put off by us lot, your input is interesting.
Regards
Exeng
Naughty, naughty DPIT and a bit daft to admit it as well.
By the way DPIT I posted some figures re pax per employee (on JMC pay thread) in reponse to your posting. Just wondered whether you have had time to read it and comment.
Please don't be put off by us lot, your input is interesting.
Regards
Exeng
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exeng and pontious thanks for your support, DPIT you should be sacked..... typical of the double standards flight crew have to put up with from our "managers" missuse of company time and property. YOU MAKE ME SICK!
Don,t even think I feel sorry for you starting at 7AM I had been at work 1hr and 15 mins by then, just a short day today, but give me your internal address I will send you my July Roster 80+ hrs (BLOCK) and 11 day off, moan ,me? Nah I love my job its working with people like you that pi$$ me off.
DPIT, you just can't resist spending our hard earned income(your last post at 14.30 local) , please no more posts in company time or on company equipment.
And re your note on doing away with seniority lists, This IMHO would enable sloppey shouldered managment type co-pilots and Captains to crawl up their bosses arse in return for better command prospects!!
Off to bed now got to back at work 0600!
[This message has been edited by CRP5 (edited 25 June 2001).]
Don,t even think I feel sorry for you starting at 7AM I had been at work 1hr and 15 mins by then, just a short day today, but give me your internal address I will send you my July Roster 80+ hrs (BLOCK) and 11 day off, moan ,me? Nah I love my job its working with people like you that pi$$ me off.
DPIT, you just can't resist spending our hard earned income(your last post at 14.30 local) , please no more posts in company time or on company equipment.
And re your note on doing away with seniority lists, This IMHO would enable sloppey shouldered managment type co-pilots and Captains to crawl up their bosses arse in return for better command prospects!!
Off to bed now got to back at work 0600!
[This message has been edited by CRP5 (edited 25 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, I am going to bow out of this thread now. I feel that a personal attack, is not justified by my postings.
Double standards of flight crew, missuse of company time and porifts..hmmmm, I am not even going to get into that arguement as that would be lowering myself to your level.
CRP5, you don't have to justify it to me that you are working hard. NO WHERE did I suggest that you, or other pilots do not work hard; you do, we all do, not that you will believe that, so I am not going to even bother!
Oh and pontius...yes, 7AM is correct, and just atfer 7PM tonight. I am not moaning. If I did not want to do those kind of hours, I would not work in my position.
Oh, and both of you...profit share would be nice...something I do NOT get.
Exeng, trying to get some upto date figures, and as soon as I have, I will post. Thank you for your support.
Double standards of flight crew, missuse of company time and porifts..hmmmm, I am not even going to get into that arguement as that would be lowering myself to your level.
CRP5, you don't have to justify it to me that you are working hard. NO WHERE did I suggest that you, or other pilots do not work hard; you do, we all do, not that you will believe that, so I am not going to even bother!
Oh and pontius...yes, 7AM is correct, and just atfer 7PM tonight. I am not moaning. If I did not want to do those kind of hours, I would not work in my position.
Oh, and both of you...profit share would be nice...something I do NOT get.
Exeng, trying to get some upto date figures, and as soon as I have, I will post. Thank you for your support.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well said CRP5.
Like yourself I too am absolutely sick of these Waterworld suits who claim to have an answer for everything, produce ridiculous ideas, and then disappear when they are found out.
Perhaps DPIT will never explain why he thinks that a senior captain is not worth $210,000 p.a. I know this has all been gone through before, but let me summarise in saying that considering the responsibility involved and the nature and pressures of the work this is actually a surprisingly low figure. Don't forget, to get there this pilot has probably been very poorly paid at the beginning of his/her career.
I always thought that they spent their time over there sending e mail to each other, but obviously PPrune takes up a large part of their day.
BA do need to make a U turn;
Stop screwing the pilots in order to subsidise the Waterside suits.
Appreciate possibly the most productive pilot force of any major airline.
Stop trying to put in cheaper substitutes, like DBA doing BAs flights to CGN. The latest idea seems to be to do away with the Manchester and Birmingham bases.
Pay the pilots the going rate in the world market.
Stop trying to hand authority to the cabin crew.
Maybe when the pilots are kept happy and the other savings are made the shares will end their freefall.
I'm not holding my breath though.
Like yourself I too am absolutely sick of these Waterworld suits who claim to have an answer for everything, produce ridiculous ideas, and then disappear when they are found out.
Perhaps DPIT will never explain why he thinks that a senior captain is not worth $210,000 p.a. I know this has all been gone through before, but let me summarise in saying that considering the responsibility involved and the nature and pressures of the work this is actually a surprisingly low figure. Don't forget, to get there this pilot has probably been very poorly paid at the beginning of his/her career.
I always thought that they spent their time over there sending e mail to each other, but obviously PPrune takes up a large part of their day.
BA do need to make a U turn;
Stop screwing the pilots in order to subsidise the Waterside suits.
Appreciate possibly the most productive pilot force of any major airline.
Stop trying to put in cheaper substitutes, like DBA doing BAs flights to CGN. The latest idea seems to be to do away with the Manchester and Birmingham bases.
Pay the pilots the going rate in the world market.
Stop trying to hand authority to the cabin crew.
Maybe when the pilots are kept happy and the other savings are made the shares will end their freefall.
I'm not holding my breath though.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DPITS if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
I’m sorry you feel offended, “I feel a personal attack is not justified by my postings” Its not the contents of your posts, I love a good debate, its when, where and how you do them, and your lack of comprehension that your doing something wrong is evident, so much so that you continue to post on company equipment later in the afternoon! That’s what truly gets my goat .How can you justify it, perhaps if you didn’t post in company time you could get out the office a little earlier!
I’m sorry you feel offended, “I feel a personal attack is not justified by my postings” Its not the contents of your posts, I love a good debate, its when, where and how you do them, and your lack of comprehension that your doing something wrong is evident, so much so that you continue to post on company equipment later in the afternoon! That’s what truly gets my goat .How can you justify it, perhaps if you didn’t post in company time you could get out the office a little earlier!