BA launch Gatwick no-frills price war
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If BA are to make a success of any low cost operation at Gatwick then one of the first things they'll have to do is expose the advertising cons of the likes of Ryanair! Anyone happen to spot the recent adverts comparing Ryanair prices with BA on routes to Klagenfurt and a couple of other places we don't even fly to? Perhaps its about time we ran some adverts showing our super-cheap APEX and compare them to some short notice Ryanair prices.
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Amazon man and others,
I agree that many in BA have the desire to make it work, and many have the capability to do so. However, there would have to be really serious changes among the many others who do not fit this description in order to make it work. I've worked for the 'full service carrier' and am now in the low-cost arena, and I can tell you that the entire corporate attitude is totally different, and cannot just be imposed in a short time-scale.
Shut down Jubilee House, drastically reduce the management, cram them all into CityFlyer's old portacabins and you might stand a chance.
Oh, and you'd also have to bin the North Terminal handling operation and go for someone who can do the handling more economically. That'll sit well with the unions!!
No I am not gloating as I have a lot of friends at BA LGW and do not want to see them out of work. However, BA cannot go into this half-heartedly.....if they want to enter the low-cost arena, they have to be low-cost!!
In trim
I agree that many in BA have the desire to make it work, and many have the capability to do so. However, there would have to be really serious changes among the many others who do not fit this description in order to make it work. I've worked for the 'full service carrier' and am now in the low-cost arena, and I can tell you that the entire corporate attitude is totally different, and cannot just be imposed in a short time-scale.
Shut down Jubilee House, drastically reduce the management, cram them all into CityFlyer's old portacabins and you might stand a chance.
Oh, and you'd also have to bin the North Terminal handling operation and go for someone who can do the handling more economically. That'll sit well with the unions!!
No I am not gloating as I have a lot of friends at BA LGW and do not want to see them out of work. However, BA cannot go into this half-heartedly.....if they want to enter the low-cost arena, they have to be low-cost!!
In trim
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Do some of you guys work for BA's "cloud cookoo land division" in the "rose coloured spectacles department". Total arrogance like "BA have the best front line staff" etc etc just proves you haven't a hope in hell of changing culture to that of a low cost airline! Get real. I don't suppose BA staff are any worse or better than anyone else's but on a 20 min turn round you won't have time for all the "mutual admiration society" nonsense. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that your desire to succeed is not genuine, but you just don't know what you're letting yourselves in for. Wake up and smell the coffee. Go and talk to line pilots for Ryanair and Easyjet (if you can find one thats no too exhausted to string two words together!)about flying to CAP371 limits (or the IAA equivalent). Can't see the British Airways Line Pilot's Association standing for that!!!
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CaptX
You are right, of course. Changing the mindset of a whole airline is going to be by far the biggest obstacle. I now work for BA and am proud and happy to do so (I was one of the very advantaged ones - provided I keep my job, that is!).
Someone earlier said that you really have to build a low cost operation from the ground up and that is absolutely true.
Look, EZY and probably Ryannair too, get the cabin crew to clean the aircraft on turn around: That will never happen at BA. One thing I have noticed about one of these airlines in particular (I won't say which lest I tempt litigious fate) doesn't do a walk around on turn around. This FACT brings a smile to my face when I hear the likes of the two respective Low Cost bosses whine on about BA being underhand by selling tickets at a loss in order to compete unfairly - as if selling tickets for ten ponds isn't!. It seems to me a case of placing commercial requirements over passenger safety but that's another argument which I hope doesn't cost the travelling public dear in order for the real truths to come out.
...dig over, back to the point...
I'm just as guilty as the next of what CaptX acused us of in certain respects: I would be loath to go back to working to CAP371 (in fact I still am until April) but the end is in sight and even if I acceeded to continue to work within it's constraints (which I'm not sure I would), I doubt that the majority of my colleagues would.
Notwithstanding this, I think that work practices such as the ones employed by Low-Cost crewing departments will be their undoing in the end. I spoke recently to the CAA chap who is in charge of issues relating to CAP371 and whilst he didn't mention any names, it was obvious who he was referring to and they are very concerned about certain loopholes being exploited. They are doing something about it but the airlines are putting up a fierce resistance in the interests, of course, of commercial viability. "Is it their reasoning, therefore," I asked him,"that in order to run a Low Cost operation successfully you have to be allowed to fatigue your crews?". "Yes, quite". was the non committal answer.
It's not the crews faults, as such, but don't shrug off EOG's sterling efforts to make their airline safer just because you choose to run unnecessary risks.
In fact, CaptX, your depiction of a Low Cost pilot's state of fatigue does much to further our cause before the travelling public: I know I'd rather pay the few extra quid and know I'm getting a rested professional.
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]</p>
You are right, of course. Changing the mindset of a whole airline is going to be by far the biggest obstacle. I now work for BA and am proud and happy to do so (I was one of the very advantaged ones - provided I keep my job, that is!).
Someone earlier said that you really have to build a low cost operation from the ground up and that is absolutely true.
Look, EZY and probably Ryannair too, get the cabin crew to clean the aircraft on turn around: That will never happen at BA. One thing I have noticed about one of these airlines in particular (I won't say which lest I tempt litigious fate) doesn't do a walk around on turn around. This FACT brings a smile to my face when I hear the likes of the two respective Low Cost bosses whine on about BA being underhand by selling tickets at a loss in order to compete unfairly - as if selling tickets for ten ponds isn't!. It seems to me a case of placing commercial requirements over passenger safety but that's another argument which I hope doesn't cost the travelling public dear in order for the real truths to come out.
...dig over, back to the point...
I'm just as guilty as the next of what CaptX acused us of in certain respects: I would be loath to go back to working to CAP371 (in fact I still am until April) but the end is in sight and even if I acceeded to continue to work within it's constraints (which I'm not sure I would), I doubt that the majority of my colleagues would.
Notwithstanding this, I think that work practices such as the ones employed by Low-Cost crewing departments will be their undoing in the end. I spoke recently to the CAA chap who is in charge of issues relating to CAP371 and whilst he didn't mention any names, it was obvious who he was referring to and they are very concerned about certain loopholes being exploited. They are doing something about it but the airlines are putting up a fierce resistance in the interests, of course, of commercial viability. "Is it their reasoning, therefore," I asked him,"that in order to run a Low Cost operation successfully you have to be allowed to fatigue your crews?". "Yes, quite". was the non committal answer.
It's not the crews faults, as such, but don't shrug off EOG's sterling efforts to make their airline safer just because you choose to run unnecessary risks.
In fact, CaptX, your depiction of a Low Cost pilot's state of fatigue does much to further our cause before the travelling public: I know I'd rather pay the few extra quid and know I'm getting a rested professional.
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]</p>
Doesnt this discussion confuse low cost and low fare?
BA has a higher cost structure than the Ryanair's and Easyjet's. Any attempt to compete with them on price by reducing service levels is doomed to failure.
BA has to cut it's cost base. That is a given. What it cannot afford to do is cut it's service levels - it should be looking to improve them. The only way for BA to succeed (short haul) is to differentiate itself by offering a substantially 'better' economy product at a price higher than the budget carriers are charging.
The problem is that there is so little difference between club class and economy class short haul that providing a decent economy class would destroy the (already weak) case for travelling club.
Then if you have lots of time, are on a diet and are prepared to travel from odd airports at odd times you go with Ryanair for £70. If you want something better, you pay £140 and go with BA.
BA has a higher cost structure than the Ryanair's and Easyjet's. Any attempt to compete with them on price by reducing service levels is doomed to failure.
BA has to cut it's cost base. That is a given. What it cannot afford to do is cut it's service levels - it should be looking to improve them. The only way for BA to succeed (short haul) is to differentiate itself by offering a substantially 'better' economy product at a price higher than the budget carriers are charging.
The problem is that there is so little difference between club class and economy class short haul that providing a decent economy class would destroy the (already weak) case for travelling club.
Then if you have lots of time, are on a diet and are prepared to travel from odd airports at odd times you go with Ryanair for £70. If you want something better, you pay £140 and go with BA.
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So are you suggesting that low-cost carriers are unsafe Secret Squirrel?. .You may have all these facts regarding a particular airline but you should not categorise, I certainly don't categorise all my BA colleagues after the incidents pointed above and televised last summer!
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Buster TB
Like your idea of the new name - BA BA Baby.
If we come up with a new name for the new BA product ex LGW here, we could save Rod a fortune in consultancy costs. He could even make a small donation to Pprune's top man to help fund this website. Ooops can't do that - look at Enron...
Here goes:
Go again, Go to (II), Go twick, GOE (EOG)
Lo-Fly, No-fly,
Pigsmight.
CFE - Cheap Flying Enterprise - he already owns this name, well the initials anyway.
BEAsy.
Follow.
I'm sure there are others.
Good luck to all those involved in Rod's new adventure - just look at his pedigree - Cathay, Ansett. Ah well. Must Fly. Stelios calls.
Like your idea of the new name - BA BA Baby.
If we come up with a new name for the new BA product ex LGW here, we could save Rod a fortune in consultancy costs. He could even make a small donation to Pprune's top man to help fund this website. Ooops can't do that - look at Enron...
Here goes:
Go again, Go to (II), Go twick, GOE (EOG)
Lo-Fly, No-fly,
Pigsmight.
CFE - Cheap Flying Enterprise - he already owns this name, well the initials anyway.
BEAsy.
Follow.
I'm sure there are others.
Good luck to all those involved in Rod's new adventure - just look at his pedigree - Cathay, Ansett. Ah well. Must Fly. Stelios calls.
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Bestie
Cheap shot, my friend: there but for the grace of God went many of us. Are you telling me that if Woollaston had worked for any other airline the results would have been any different? You know as well as I do that the answer to that is a resounding NO!, so let's drop this one shall we; save the smug remarks for when you have the moral high ground.
Springbok
Nay, I am not saying all low cost carriers are unsafe and I am casting no aspersions on crews as such. My beef is with the crewing departments who exploit both crews and the system and brow beat them with cap371 at every turn. I was merely pointing out to CaptX that he cannot criticise us because we won't change our safer working practices for the sake of commercial gain and then tell us how the low cost airline pilots are so fatigued because they don't enjoy such conditions, as if it's a major contributory factor towards the viability of a low cost operation. Essentially it's raising the deepseated suspicion amoungst the travelling public that in order to achieve low cost, the reductions don't stop at the service. He dug that hole all by himself; I was merely clarifying the implications of what he was saying and illustrating them with an experience of my own.
I certainly make no apology for the comment about the carrier which doesn't do a walk around because this is blatant disregard for safety; I don't care how you justify it and sugar coat it.
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]</p>
Cheap shot, my friend: there but for the grace of God went many of us. Are you telling me that if Woollaston had worked for any other airline the results would have been any different? You know as well as I do that the answer to that is a resounding NO!, so let's drop this one shall we; save the smug remarks for when you have the moral high ground.
Springbok
Nay, I am not saying all low cost carriers are unsafe and I am casting no aspersions on crews as such. My beef is with the crewing departments who exploit both crews and the system and brow beat them with cap371 at every turn. I was merely pointing out to CaptX that he cannot criticise us because we won't change our safer working practices for the sake of commercial gain and then tell us how the low cost airline pilots are so fatigued because they don't enjoy such conditions, as if it's a major contributory factor towards the viability of a low cost operation. Essentially it's raising the deepseated suspicion amoungst the travelling public that in order to achieve low cost, the reductions don't stop at the service. He dug that hole all by himself; I was merely clarifying the implications of what he was saying and illustrating them with an experience of my own.
I certainly make no apology for the comment about the carrier which doesn't do a walk around because this is blatant disregard for safety; I don't care how you justify it and sugar coat it.
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Secret Squirrel ]</p>
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I think they should increase fares and improve. .services.
Bigger seats . .More padding . .Beds. .Better wine . .Better food . .Free gifts . .More room . .Select company no rif raf!. .Personal Service. .Visit from the Captain. .Make the customer feel important. .Not like cattle=low-cost. .Fast Free transfers. .Exec service
Its called product differentiation
Bigger seats . .More padding . .Beds. .Better wine . .Better food . .Free gifts . .More room . .Select company no rif raf!. .Personal Service. .Visit from the Captain. .Make the customer feel important. .Not like cattle=low-cost. .Fast Free transfers. .Exec service
Its called product differentiation
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Secret Squirrel. .Have just read your post about crew fatigue in the low cost airlines. I have a friend who is a FO with one of airlines you mentioned and he flew under 600 hours for them in the last calendar year. . .I think that you will find there are alot of people working for the charter carriers who work a lot harder than that. Maybe you should suggest that we dont fly charter carriers either in case they are too tired!
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Which is harder? Flying 600 hours p.a. consisting of 4 or 5 short sectors each day with fast turnarounds, or clocking up 800 hours whilst doing 2 longish sectors per day (or night). There's much more to the subject of fatigue than "I've flown more hours than you so I'm more knackered". Personally I'd gladly do the occasional night Tenerife than four days of 5:30am report 4 sector days with a 30 minute turnaround (if only for the variety <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> ).
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</p>
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</p>
PPRuNe Person
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Capt X
Try mentioning CAP 371 to many of our -400 crews. They are well aware of the meaning of the 900 hour limit, as they are hours limited this month.
BA enjoys the highest productivity by pilot of ANY of the worldwide majors.
Try mentioning CAP 371 to many of our -400 crews. They are well aware of the meaning of the 900 hour limit, as they are hours limited this month.
BA enjoys the highest productivity by pilot of ANY of the worldwide majors.
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Secret squiral,
Shove it up your a**e!!
I am a 'low cost' SFO (orange), I'm certainly not working to the CAP371 limits.
I've done 100.3 Hours in 88 days, and am now on 25 day leave!!
Wouldn't mind doing more though, last company was a regional, (hq in the south west) and did 376 hours in 4 months! and that didn't include positioning duties (of which there were a lot of), that was knackering, glad I'm out of there!!
Don't believe all the rumours you hear about the low costs! There usually wrong!!
Shove it up your a**e!!
I am a 'low cost' SFO (orange), I'm certainly not working to the CAP371 limits.
I've done 100.3 Hours in 88 days, and am now on 25 day leave!!
Wouldn't mind doing more though, last company was a regional, (hq in the south west) and did 376 hours in 4 months! and that didn't include positioning duties (of which there were a lot of), that was knackering, glad I'm out of there!!
Don't believe all the rumours you hear about the low costs! There usually wrong!!
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Secret Squirrel
I have it on good authority that in "easy" the flight deck help the cabin crew to clean the rubbish up if they have time on the turnarounds. I am not sure if this example of low -cost ethos would be embraced by a traditional carrier like BA
I have it on good authority that in "easy" the flight deck help the cabin crew to clean the rubbish up if they have time on the turnarounds. I am not sure if this example of low -cost ethos would be embraced by a traditional carrier like BA