Danger in the skies
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As someone who suffered a sudden massive allergic reaction to petrochemicals I had been working with for years, I can relate to these incidents.
It effectively put an end to my normal working life over two decades ago, and the after effects are still with me, and only slightly diminished.
It effectively put an end to my normal working life over two decades ago, and the after effects are still with me, and only slightly diminished.
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I have to agree with Torycanyon and the others, the math just does not add up.
MrFire,
I recall on other threads just recently that there was proof of the contamination, as TCP had been found in re-circ filters of the B737, B757 and BAE146. There was also swab samples taken that had found TCP on the cockpit walls of the BAE146 and also found in a pilots pants.
Kalium Chloride,
"Why has this 146 stuff suddenly emerged now? It's not a new story, I remember Private Eye doing it a couple of years ago."
Exactly, it is not a new story and has been ongoing for over 25 years.
What is Criminal is still nothing has been done about it.
Well done to the OBSERVER for bring this into the spotlight again.
There needs to be a Public Enquiry to reveal the extent of the Cover Up once and for all.
MrFire,
I recall on other threads just recently that there was proof of the contamination, as TCP had been found in re-circ filters of the B737, B757 and BAE146. There was also swab samples taken that had found TCP on the cockpit walls of the BAE146 and also found in a pilots pants.
Kalium Chloride,
"Why has this 146 stuff suddenly emerged now? It's not a new story, I remember Private Eye doing it a couple of years ago."
Exactly, it is not a new story and has been ongoing for over 25 years.
What is Criminal is still nothing has been done about it.
Well done to the OBSERVER for bring this into the spotlight again.
There needs to be a Public Enquiry to reveal the extent of the Cover Up once and for all.
Pprune strikes again!
Lots of fodder in here for news stories on this subject with long running threads on the subject and of course the latest headline grabbers now being posted.
The only thing new in all this is that still nobody knows.
Remember, when all is said and done more will be said then done
Lots of fodder in here for news stories on this subject with long running threads on the subject and of course the latest headline grabbers now being posted.
The only thing new in all this is that still nobody knows.
Remember, when all is said and done more will be said then done
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Absolutely Broadreach. When you look at M/s Buck's website it has hard to imagine anybody less qualified to dabble in aviation. For whatever reason, she is going back to where her expertise " lies."
Stercus Accidit
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Corporate affiliation bias and BAe 146 aircraft: Senate report
Andrew C. Harper Occupational Physician, Western Australia
The Australian Senate has completed an inquiry into aircraft air quality in the BAe 146 aircraft because of many incidents of apparent toxic illness among the crew.
The Senate Committee concluded that cabin contamination continues to occur(1) and that this has led to short?term and medium?term health problems for a number of BAe 146 flight crew.(1)
The inquiry has tested the ability of medical science in Australia to objectively appraise the evidence of the health effects of the aircraft. The inquiry found professional opinion differed. Opinion of some experts was that the cabin air quality was hazardous and other opinion said it was not.
Submissions to the Senate inquiry spanned a full range of opinion. At one end of the spectrum toxicologists and others documented the neurotoxicity of organo?phosphates and naphthalenamines in aircraft oils and fluids and design faults in the BAe 146 aircraft with resulting cabin contamination and illness among passengers and crew.
In contrast to this, the executive general manager of Ansett Australia stated "[i]t is the clear view of Ansett Australia that its fleet of BAe 146 aircraft are safe for crew and passengers alike".(2)
"The (Senate) Committee notes that opinion on the hazardous nature of exposure to oil fumes is divided almost exactly between affected flight crew and their medical advisers on the one hand, and the airline industry and CASA [Civil Aviation Safety Authority] on the other". (1)
Of course, some variation in professional views is to be expected. However, these findings indicate that professional opinion was not independent and varied according to affiliation with either employee or employer.
This finding calls into question the credibility of expert opinion, This affiliation bias of professional opinion in the context of occupational liability is another example to add to the existing compendium of documented medical biases.
(3) Such an affiliation bias is not new to industrial medicine.
A classic case was asbestosis, which was recognised for decades before acknowledged by employers.
The findings of the Senate inquiry substantiate a corporate affiliation bias towards the under?recognition of health problems associated with the BAe 146 aircraft and the general reluctance of private business to uphold the value of human health.
We need to reflect on the origin of this failure to publicly acknowledge illness associated with work. We now learn that flight crew in this aircraft have been affected in Australia and overseas for years and design modifications to rectify cabin air contamination have been implemented repeatedly for just as long.
It has taken a Senate inquiry to inform treating doctors of the presence and nature of the occupational hazard, professional experts consulted by the airline having failed to do so.
We are in a corporate era in which accountability to employees and responsibility for individuals' welfare will not be assured without government authority routinely upholding standards of public health. Privatisation is fine for profit but not for public protection.
References
1. Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee. Air Safety and Cabin Air Quality in the Me 146 Aircraft Report. Canberra: Senate Printing Unit, Parliament House, 2000 October. p. 97, 100, 101.
2. Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee. Air Safety and Cabin Air Quality in the BAe 146 Aircraft: Submission. Canberra: Senate Printing Unit, Parliament House, 2000 October. volume 2, p. 188.
3. Sackett DL. Bias in Analytic Research. J Chron Dis 1979;32:51?63.
AUSTRALIAN AND NEW ZEALAND JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH 2001 VOL. 25 NO. 4
Andrew C. Harper Occupational Physician, Western Australia
The Australian Senate has completed an inquiry into aircraft air quality in the BAe 146 aircraft because of many incidents of apparent toxic illness among the crew.
The Senate Committee concluded that cabin contamination continues to occur(1) and that this has led to short?term and medium?term health problems for a number of BAe 146 flight crew.(1)
The inquiry has tested the ability of medical science in Australia to objectively appraise the evidence of the health effects of the aircraft. The inquiry found professional opinion differed. Opinion of some experts was that the cabin air quality was hazardous and other opinion said it was not.
Submissions to the Senate inquiry spanned a full range of opinion. At one end of the spectrum toxicologists and others documented the neurotoxicity of organo?phosphates and naphthalenamines in aircraft oils and fluids and design faults in the BAe 146 aircraft with resulting cabin contamination and illness among passengers and crew.
In contrast to this, the executive general manager of Ansett Australia stated "[i]t is the clear view of Ansett Australia that its fleet of BAe 146 aircraft are safe for crew and passengers alike".(2)
"The (Senate) Committee notes that opinion on the hazardous nature of exposure to oil fumes is divided almost exactly between affected flight crew and their medical advisers on the one hand, and the airline industry and CASA [Civil Aviation Safety Authority] on the other". (1)
Of course, some variation in professional views is to be expected. However, these findings indicate that professional opinion was not independent and varied according to affiliation with either employee or employer.
This finding calls into question the credibility of expert opinion, This affiliation bias of professional opinion in the context of occupational liability is another example to add to the existing compendium of documented medical biases.
(3) Such an affiliation bias is not new to industrial medicine.
A classic case was asbestosis, which was recognised for decades before acknowledged by employers.
The findings of the Senate inquiry substantiate a corporate affiliation bias towards the under?recognition of health problems associated with the BAe 146 aircraft and the general reluctance of private business to uphold the value of human health.
We need to reflect on the origin of this failure to publicly acknowledge illness associated with work. We now learn that flight crew in this aircraft have been affected in Australia and overseas for years and design modifications to rectify cabin air contamination have been implemented repeatedly for just as long.
It has taken a Senate inquiry to inform treating doctors of the presence and nature of the occupational hazard, professional experts consulted by the airline having failed to do so.
We are in a corporate era in which accountability to employees and responsibility for individuals' welfare will not be assured without government authority routinely upholding standards of public health. Privatisation is fine for profit but not for public protection.
References
1. Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee. Air Safety and Cabin Air Quality in the Me 146 Aircraft Report. Canberra: Senate Printing Unit, Parliament House, 2000 October. p. 97, 100, 101.
2. Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee. Air Safety and Cabin Air Quality in the BAe 146 Aircraft: Submission. Canberra: Senate Printing Unit, Parliament House, 2000 October. volume 2, p. 188.
3. Sackett DL. Bias in Analytic Research. J Chron Dis 1979;32:51?63.
AUSTRALIAN AND NEW ZEALAND JOURNAL OF PUBLIC HEALTH 2001 VOL. 25 NO. 4
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JMC MAN I hope you do not fly as you are clearly seriously lacking upstairs pal!
If its 3 guys / gals and the PPrune reporters only why the hell are the Feds spending millions on research?
http://www.ohrca.org/
Bet you are just an industry player who always dreamt of being a flier but never made it through flight school as thats how you come accross.
If its 3 guys / gals and the PPrune reporters only why the hell are the Feds spending millions on research?
http://www.ohrca.org/
Bet you are just an industry player who always dreamt of being a flier but never made it through flight school as thats how you come accross.
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I took a flight from Heathrow to Birmingham a few years ago where there was a single pilot. I was in the front right seat and could see the pilot at the controls as he had the door open.
As the flight progressed the pilot started yawning and streching his neck and his arms - all the movements expected if trying to stay awake. He acted like this all the way on this trip (about 30 minutes) flying and landing were perfect however.
I assumed that he was desperately trying to stay awake and I was quite concerned, it could have been CO but he looked pale rather than flushed.
What would you have done if you had seen a pilot in this condition?
As the flight progressed the pilot started yawning and streching his neck and his arms - all the movements expected if trying to stay awake. He acted like this all the way on this trip (about 30 minutes) flying and landing were perfect however.
I assumed that he was desperately trying to stay awake and I was quite concerned, it could have been CO but he looked pale rather than flushed.
What would you have done if you had seen a pilot in this condition?
Funfly,
In a word, nothing.
But your experience is not entirely relevant to the thread, is it. The issue is toxicity of fumes that occasionally get into the cockpit and cabin. "Occasionally" because it's not all aircraft nor is it all the time. And when you open the doors at destination, hey presto, there's nothing there to prove the argument.
But, it's a few distinct types of aircraft, and it's fairly frequent, sufficiently so to go beyond urban legend or scaremongering.
The asbestos parallel in Kaos's post above is very pertinent.
In a word, nothing.
But your experience is not entirely relevant to the thread, is it. The issue is toxicity of fumes that occasionally get into the cockpit and cabin. "Occasionally" because it's not all aircraft nor is it all the time. And when you open the doors at destination, hey presto, there's nothing there to prove the argument.
But, it's a few distinct types of aircraft, and it's fairly frequent, sufficiently so to go beyond urban legend or scaremongering.
The asbestos parallel in Kaos's post above is very pertinent.
ex-Tanker
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Contaminated Aircon
I almost stopped a take off some years back on an MD-80 because de-icing
fluid pouring off the wings had entered those big vacuum cleaners at the back and got into the aircon.
The smell was indeed similar to an overheated central heating boiler.
If this latest incident followed de-icing, it may be a line to follow up. In our case, far too much fluid had been applied by a temporary employee. Symptoms at the time were an acidic feeling in the throat and (later in the flight) slightly burning eyes.
FC.
fluid pouring off the wings had entered those big vacuum cleaners at the back and got into the aircon.
The smell was indeed similar to an overheated central heating boiler.
If this latest incident followed de-icing, it may be a line to follow up. In our case, far too much fluid had been applied by a temporary employee. Symptoms at the time were an acidic feeling in the throat and (later in the flight) slightly burning eyes.
FC.
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I'll say it again, any one know whether these incidents under discussion here are experienced on the Avro RJ ir are unique to the first generation 146 a/c?
Rather old then bold
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GT,
can't give you a specific answer, but it seems that it's engine related, as implied in this investigation by the Swedish Accident Board:
http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/reports/rl2001_41e.pdf
Regards,
MA
can't give you a specific answer, but it seems that it's engine related, as implied in this investigation by the Swedish Accident Board:
http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/reports/rl2001_41e.pdf
Regards,
MA
Last edited by Major Attack; 6th Mar 2006 at 15:32.
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BALPA Out in the COLD
Sky News and 5 Live both had articles about the problems of Toxic Fumes in aircraft cabins today.There were good presentations from Peter Jackson, Malcom Hooper and Vyvyan Howard. I was rather disappointed that BALPA did not put across their view point on the subject.
Have BALPA been left out in the cold? Are they no longer the credible Pilots Union that they once were? Only Time will tell.
Come on BALPA, the IPA are stealing your Thunder.
Have BALPA been left out in the cold? Are they no longer the credible Pilots Union that they once were? Only Time will tell.
Come on BALPA, the IPA are stealing your Thunder.