LHR single runway OPS
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Originally Posted by point5
Jumbo - such a TOI already exists for 27R. I wonder if T5 will have a similar affect to the BA hangers? I think they're a bit too far away.
By the way, what does TOI stand for? Is is Temporary Operating Instruction? If so, what is "Temporary" about the wind effects caused by these buildings?
Surely it should be a standing instruction within the MATS pt2?
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Jer, you have a high opinion of yourself.
But then again, I guess that should be expected!
Anyway, back to the topic......What implications would this have on mixed mode (if and when
)?
But then again, I guess that should be expected!
Anyway, back to the topic......What implications would this have on mixed mode (if and when
)?
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Stoic
Sick Squid
Why would T5 affect you when landing on 09L with a gusting north-easterly? T5 is to your right and downwind of you when there is a north-easterly when you land on 09L. Surely you mean 09R?
Regards
Stoic
Yea, yes, yes, I realised landing 09L the other day that I'd got it wrong and I meant a SOUTH-easterly, and I knew I'd never get back from the trip in time to edit the post, and I knew that someone would point it out.... ah well. Good spot. 09R applies as the original, but we never get to land 09R when we need to ... I've only ever been given 09R on a domestic for T1 due runway blockage, and never when I'm actually going to T4. Squid
Why would T5 affect you when landing on 09L with a gusting north-easterly? T5 is to your right and downwind of you when there is a north-easterly when you land on 09L. Surely you mean 09R?
Regards
Stoic
Yea, yes, yes, I realised landing 09L the other day that I'd got it wrong and I meant a SOUTH-easterly, and I knew I'd never get back from the trip in time to edit the post, and I knew that someone would point it out.... ah well. Good spot. 09R applies as the original, but we never get to land 09R when we need to ... I've only ever been given 09R on a domestic for T1 due runway blockage, and never when I'm actually going to T4. Squid
Last edited by Sick Squid; 1st Mar 2006 at 01:43.
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Stoic - you beat me to it with that question, I await the answer with baited breath! 
Gonzo - 's easy, don't land us on a runway that's downwind of T5 or the BA hangars - simple really!!
On a slightly more serious note, and purely for my own interest - how long does it take you to change all the landers to the other runway when the landing runway gets blocked? Or to put it another way - if I'm in 1 of the holds when it happens, how much extra holding should I anticipate?
Ta,
t
Gonzo - 's easy, don't land us on a runway that's downwind of T5 or the BA hangars - simple really!!
On a slightly more serious note, and purely for my own interest - how long does it take you to change all the landers to the other runway when the landing runway gets blocked? Or to put it another way - if I'm in 1 of the holds when it happens, how much extra holding should I anticipate?
Ta,
t
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Originally Posted by tired
Stoic - you beat me to it with that question, I await the answer with baited breath!
Gonzo - 's easy, don't land us on a runway that's downwind of T5 or the BA hangars - simple really!!
On a slightly more serious note, and purely for my own interest - how long does it take you to change all the landers to the other runway when the landing runway gets blocked? Or to put it another way - if I'm in 1 of the holds when it happens, how much extra holding should I anticipate?
Ta,
t
Gonzo - 's easy, don't land us on a runway that's downwind of T5 or the BA hangars - simple really!!
On a slightly more serious note, and purely for my own interest - how long does it take you to change all the landers to the other runway when the landing runway gets blocked? Or to put it another way - if I'm in 1 of the holds when it happens, how much extra holding should I anticipate?
Ta,
t
Yes I did.. thank you. Beer on me... Squid As to your question, just depends how quickly we can clear the other runway. If there's departing traffic already on the threshold its a case of either taxi it along to vacate, or launch on a heading that takes it away from any possible go-arounds.
As it happened yesterday only two had to go around before we could clear 09R and start landing on it, so didn't really take that long. Only thing for the a/c already in the hold is that, as we're effectively single runway ops from then on, we need gaps to get departures away as well, so hold time will obviously increase, compared to an arrivals only runway. Can't put an exact figure on it though, but one of my TC colleagues could possibly give you a rough figure?!?
FB
Last edited by Sick Squid; 1st Mar 2006 at 01:49.
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Tired,
Fly Bhoy's right. On a decent day we can switch you over visually with not that much warning, assuming the other runway is available for landing. If we do lose a runway, especially on easterlies, that means we have a lot of a/c off the stacks already, so I'd personaly be tempted to not bother trying to set up spacing for depatures. I'd just land the next ten or so a/c to clear the intermediate approach before even thinking about departing anything. It's far better all around if we take a hit on the outbound delay so the stacks don't all fill up immediately and you end up entering the hold at LOGAN at FL nosebleed, mucking up the whole of the TMA.
It depends on the particular runway, but 25 inbounds compared to 40-42 an hour would be approximate. I think 6 mile spacing (default single runway) equates to 24 an hour. However, 09R is a pig for single runway, and I'd add a mile on to every gap to start with.
Fly Bhoy's right. On a decent day we can switch you over visually with not that much warning, assuming the other runway is available for landing. If we do lose a runway, especially on easterlies, that means we have a lot of a/c off the stacks already, so I'd personaly be tempted to not bother trying to set up spacing for depatures. I'd just land the next ten or so a/c to clear the intermediate approach before even thinking about departing anything. It's far better all around if we take a hit on the outbound delay so the stacks don't all fill up immediately and you end up entering the hold at LOGAN at FL nosebleed, mucking up the whole of the TMA.
It depends on the particular runway, but 25 inbounds compared to 40-42 an hour would be approximate. I think 6 mile spacing (default single runway) equates to 24 an hour. However, 09R is a pig for single runway, and I'd add a mile on to every gap to start with.
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Originally Posted by Gonzo
Tired,
Fly Bhoy's right. On a decent day we can switch you over visually with not that much warning, assuming the other runway is available for landing. If we do lose a runway, especially on easterlies, that means we have a lot of a/c off the stacks already, so I'd personaly be tempted to not bother trying to set up spacing for depatures. I'd just land the next ten or so a/c to clear the intermediate approach before even thinking about departing anything. It's far better all around if we take a hit on the outbound delay so the stacks don't all fill up immediately and you end up entering the hold at LOGAN at FL nosebleed, mucking up the whole of the TMA.
It depends on the particular runway, but 25 inbounds compared to 40-42 an hour would be approximate. I think 6 mile spacing (default single runway) equates to 24 an hour. However, 09R is a pig for single runway, and I'd add a mile on to every gap to start with.
Fly Bhoy's right. On a decent day we can switch you over visually with not that much warning, assuming the other runway is available for landing. If we do lose a runway, especially on easterlies, that means we have a lot of a/c off the stacks already, so I'd personaly be tempted to not bother trying to set up spacing for depatures. I'd just land the next ten or so a/c to clear the intermediate approach before even thinking about departing anything. It's far better all around if we take a hit on the outbound delay so the stacks don't all fill up immediately and you end up entering the hold at LOGAN at FL nosebleed, mucking up the whole of the TMA.
It depends on the particular runway, but 25 inbounds compared to 40-42 an hour would be approximate. I think 6 mile spacing (default single runway) equates to 24 an hour. However, 09R is a pig for single runway, and I'd add a mile on to every gap to start with.
Only reason I know though is cos it was me doing arrivals yesterday when it all happened!!!!
Seriously though, that is indeed what happened yesterday, with us using packed arrivals to clear the ones already off the stacks before figuring out gaps to resume deps as well. We did manage to clear 09L reasonably quickly though so it was ops normal after about 10-15mins or so...albeit with a somewhat increased blood pressure!!!
FB
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Yep, it can certainly wake you up! The worst thing is if Deps refuse to launch the one that's on their threshold because of your go-arounds, so you have to keep sending stuff around! D'oh!
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Fly Bhoy/Gonzo - thanks for the replies, good to have in the back of my mind. If you're going to lose 15 - 17 landings /hour I guess the delays would add up pretty quickly for those not already near the front of the queue.
Gonzo wrote -
"I'd personaly be tempted to not bother trying to set up spacing for depatures. I'd just land the next ten or so a/c to clear the intermediate approach before even thinking about departing anything. It's far better all around if we take a hit on the outbound delay so the stacks don't all fill up immediately and you end up entering the hold at LOGAN at FL nosebleed, mucking up the whole of the TMA."
My thoughts exactly, glad to know you guys think the same!!
t
Gonzo wrote -
"I'd personaly be tempted to not bother trying to set up spacing for depatures. I'd just land the next ten or so a/c to clear the intermediate approach before even thinking about departing anything. It's far better all around if we take a hit on the outbound delay so the stacks don't all fill up immediately and you end up entering the hold at LOGAN at FL nosebleed, mucking up the whole of the TMA."
My thoughts exactly, glad to know you guys think the same!!
t
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<<The worst thing is if Deps refuse to launch the one that's on their threshold because of your go-arounds, so you have to keep sending stuff around! >>
I've thought long and hard about that and I can't think of why, unless for some reason he has to turn across your climb-out?
I've thought long and hard about that and I can't think of why, unless for some reason he has to turn across your climb-out?
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Watched the chaos on Saturday with interest. Loads of delays.
At one stage we had simultaneuous take off from 09R and 09L, 2x Airbuses (BMi & BA) if I recall. The VS A340 with burst tyres was parked slewed at a precarious angle off of the taxiway near to T3 which looked unusual.
We are back on westerlies today. Needless to say over the weekend there were certainly some VERY interesting approaches over Colnbrook and gusty touchdowns. It looked real bumpy on finals. I will say some of those VS
A340-600s seem to drift and flap around quite a lot on approach,, I watched one touchdown around 1500hrs on 09L and it was very close to a port wingtip scrape, a gust caught it in the last 20-30ft above ground.
At one stage we had simultaneuous take off from 09R and 09L, 2x Airbuses (BMi & BA) if I recall. The VS A340 with burst tyres was parked slewed at a precarious angle off of the taxiway near to T3 which looked unusual.
We are back on westerlies today. Needless to say over the weekend there were certainly some VERY interesting approaches over Colnbrook and gusty touchdowns. It looked real bumpy on finals. I will say some of those VS
A340-600s seem to drift and flap around quite a lot on approach,, I watched one touchdown around 1500hrs on 09L and it was very close to a port wingtip scrape, a gust caught it in the last 20-30ft above ground.
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It is a requirement that Deps suspends all departures when there is a go-around on the other runway - the fewer aircraft you have in the air, the easier it is to deconflict against a go-around!
It is normally the job of the Arrivals controller to ask TC if the Deps controller can resume departures, stating the direction of the next to depart (I know it is a bit strange) As you can imagine on Saturday, the Arrivals guy has no time to do this at the same time as sending aircraft around, co-ordinaing with TC and the emergency services and putting on an AGI. This means traffic waiting to depart on 09R at the same time as inbound traffic needs to visually switch to land on the same runway
I suppose you have 2 options here. If we go by the book, Deps must suspend their departures which means there'll be quite a number of go-arounds until full single runway ops commence and the inbound spacing is sorted out. Alternatively, deps could depart the 1 or 2 aircraft they have infringing the runway in order to aid visual switches onto their runway immediately (remember you may not only have the aircraft lined up to depart infringing, but potentially another which has crossed the CAT1 bar). This will decrease the number of go-arounds, however it may require more work with the traffic once airbourne. For example, if the next 2 to go are on the same route but you need to get the runway clear, they could be launched 1 minute apart but would have to be adequately (well 5 miles) separated once airbourne using headings etc...
Not much time to think about the best course of action when these things happen!
It is normally the job of the Arrivals controller to ask TC if the Deps controller can resume departures, stating the direction of the next to depart (I know it is a bit strange) As you can imagine on Saturday, the Arrivals guy has no time to do this at the same time as sending aircraft around, co-ordinaing with TC and the emergency services and putting on an AGI. This means traffic waiting to depart on 09R at the same time as inbound traffic needs to visually switch to land on the same runway
I suppose you have 2 options here. If we go by the book, Deps must suspend their departures which means there'll be quite a number of go-arounds until full single runway ops commence and the inbound spacing is sorted out. Alternatively, deps could depart the 1 or 2 aircraft they have infringing the runway in order to aid visual switches onto their runway immediately (remember you may not only have the aircraft lined up to depart infringing, but potentially another which has crossed the CAT1 bar). This will decrease the number of go-arounds, however it may require more work with the traffic once airbourne. For example, if the next 2 to go are on the same route but you need to get the runway clear, they could be launched 1 minute apart but would have to be adequately (well 5 miles) separated once airbourne using headings etc...
Not much time to think about the best course of action when these things happen!
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update
just seen the posting guys.
The VS landed 09R but did not scrape a pod he landed either side of the southern contact lane ( edge of runway) approx 4 to 5 mtrs from the grass edge. He burst 2 tryes doing so. aircraft came to a stop on N5E and fire service attended. The runway was only closed for 20 mins. Sorry ATC but 20 mins is bad news for you i know but i thought we got it back to you very quickly after the clear up where he damaged the edge of the runway. Also the fact the aircaft was slightly infringing the runway but as vis was fine it wasnt really an issue.
Aircraft deplaned on sight and then towed to stand after approx 90 mins.
Captains version was a gust of wind blew him to the right and he was committed to land.
AAIB did attend and i suppose a report will be published soon.
The aircraft went out that night !!
The VS landed 09R but did not scrape a pod he landed either side of the southern contact lane ( edge of runway) approx 4 to 5 mtrs from the grass edge. He burst 2 tryes doing so. aircraft came to a stop on N5E and fire service attended. The runway was only closed for 20 mins. Sorry ATC but 20 mins is bad news for you i know but i thought we got it back to you very quickly after the clear up where he damaged the edge of the runway. Also the fact the aircaft was slightly infringing the runway but as vis was fine it wasnt really an issue.
Aircraft deplaned on sight and then towed to stand after approx 90 mins.
Captains version was a gust of wind blew him to the right and he was committed to land.
AAIB did attend and i suppose a report will be published soon.
The aircraft went out that night !!
