Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
ex-Tanker
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Oct 19. 1970. RAF Marham. Victor K1a tanker. Eng failure on lift off. Fuel jettisoned - heavyweight circuit flown - landed 150,000lbs.
The captain was FC. landing weight indicates that 36,000 lbs fuel were dumped at circuit height 1,500 ft.
Fine drizzle was falling and the good citizens of Swaffham had a very strong smell of AVTUR fuel. A colleague of mine driving to work put out his cigarette. It was a monday and despite the drizzle the good houswives had washing out to air. Most of this had to be rewashed.
On another occasion a fighter tanking fuel broke his probe during fuel transfer. The resulting stream of fuel (immediately behind the basket) doused both his engines (subsequently relit).
As has been pointed out above however, in dry conditions the fuel vapourises quite rapidly. It also gently falls lower initially. I would say, that a good separation to aim for would be the same as is used to allow wake turbulence behind a heavy to dissapate.
The captain was FC. landing weight indicates that 36,000 lbs fuel were dumped at circuit height 1,500 ft.
Fine drizzle was falling and the good citizens of Swaffham had a very strong smell of AVTUR fuel. A colleague of mine driving to work put out his cigarette. It was a monday and despite the drizzle the good houswives had washing out to air. Most of this had to be rewashed.
On another occasion a fighter tanking fuel broke his probe during fuel transfer. The resulting stream of fuel (immediately behind the basket) doused both his engines (subsequently relit).
As has been pointed out above however, in dry conditions the fuel vapourises quite rapidly. It also gently falls lower initially. I would say, that a good separation to aim for would be the same as is used to allow wake turbulence behind a heavy to dissapate.
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Break Dancer: You would do both. On most modern aircraft with a switched on crew and a little organisation the seeds of where the nearest suitable airfield is would already be well sown. With no aircraft non normal situation planning a diversion is pretty simple and opening up the fuel jettison is something that can be done while transitting to chosen airfield.
I can only speak for the 777 but it is very simple system that dumps to max land weight automatically, even calculating the fuel burn to the div once the FMC has been programmed which takes about 30 secs.
I can only speak for the 777 but it is very simple system that dumps to max land weight automatically, even calculating the fuel burn to the div once the FMC has been programmed which takes about 30 secs.
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Thanks for the replies.
Am I right in thinking that although you'd rather not fly through dumped fuel it's not the end of the world if you do?
Happy New Year to all our pilot colleagues and I hope to keep all of you safe in the future.
MancBoy
Am I right in thinking that although you'd rather not fly through dumped fuel it's not the end of the world if you do?
Happy New Year to all our pilot colleagues and I hope to keep all of you safe in the future.
MancBoy
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Fuel Dumping in Heavy Thundershower
A few years ago I had an emergency, we lost one engine due to engine fire number 3 on an A340 with TOW 245t. We had to wait for 2hours before departure because of +TS and just in the rotation the engine fire #3 came on. We had overweight for landing and decided to remain at the departure aerodrome, since all the other airports werent much better or would have had similiar weather on ETA there. We began the fuel dumping procedure when we were zick-zacking between the red spots on the radar. The constant lightning left, right and in front kept us from dumping. We decided for the overweight on a very wet runway. All went fine. Later, on the green table, we got told: Airbus said: The fuel dumping in TS with lightning is safe.
I still wouldn´t dump.
Does anyone got experience with that or knows better ?
I still wouldn´t dump.
Does anyone got experience with that or knows better ?
I've dumped 60+ tonnoes on the 777 once some 8 years back. The fuel gushed out from the nozzle like water from a fire hose. We were on steady radar heading and descending from a rather high altitude. The fume smell in the cabin is actually fairly strong. I would say flying close to the trail of it would be very unpleasent. Dumping in a race track hold would ( I reckon) be dumb.
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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Airbus340FO,
Despite what Airbus engineers might say, who wants to dump fuel in a lightning zone? Some things just aren't right! It's Darwinistic.
I remember the old DC-8 allowed thrust reverser deployment in flight. I saw it on my initial IOE but never used it, and when I became a captain, wouldn't allow it to be used, despite the lack of other drag alternatives as the 8 had no in-flight spoilers and a 230 KIAS gear and flaps limit. If God wanted me to use reversers in flight, He wouldn't have written a memory item in case they didn't retract!
As for fuel dumping, I want to be 5,000 feet above the ground, overwater, or have no option, i.e. the aircraft is going down if I don't dump. I'm not worried at all about other aircraft, although if I were a receiver in pre-contact position on a tanker, different rules would apply, of course.
Despite what Airbus engineers might say, who wants to dump fuel in a lightning zone? Some things just aren't right! It's Darwinistic.
I remember the old DC-8 allowed thrust reverser deployment in flight. I saw it on my initial IOE but never used it, and when I became a captain, wouldn't allow it to be used, despite the lack of other drag alternatives as the 8 had no in-flight spoilers and a 230 KIAS gear and flaps limit. If God wanted me to use reversers in flight, He wouldn't have written a memory item in case they didn't retract!
As for fuel dumping, I want to be 5,000 feet above the ground, overwater, or have no option, i.e. the aircraft is going down if I don't dump. I'm not worried at all about other aircraft, although if I were a receiver in pre-contact position on a tanker, different rules would apply, of course.
Never seen it live though.
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
MancBoy - yup, that about sums up my feelings on it - keep me as far away as you can, but if the situation requires you to use your min radar separation then so be it, it won't kill me. It would be very nice to know that we're going to pass close behind/below someone who's dumping though.
A340FO - agree with you entirely. Don't care what Airbus says, dumping in a thunderstorm doesn't sound like a very clever idea. My company ops manaul advises against it.
Some one asked about dumping rates earlier in the thread - A340-300 - 1 ton/minute. A340 -600 - 1.6 ton/minute.
Happy New Year to all.
t
A340FO - agree with you entirely. Don't care what Airbus says, dumping in a thunderstorm doesn't sound like a very clever idea. My company ops manaul advises against it.
Some one asked about dumping rates earlier in the thread - A340-300 - 1 ton/minute. A340 -600 - 1.6 ton/minute.
Happy New Year to all.
t
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
Code:
Don't care what Airbus says, dumping in a thunderstorm doesn't sound like a very clever idea
It is quite difficult to get Avtur to burn in the right circumstances (HP pumps, sprayers / vaporisers etc. into a compressed i.e. hot air scenario). I might expect an untrained passenger to imagine a lightning strike causing a "dumping fuel aircraft" to "explode" but am a little surprised (and disappointed) to see professional pilots succumbing to this viewpoint. IMHO the jettisoning stream at the nozzle could not be ignited, however hard you tried... see the F-111 routine where the full reheat plume can only get the dispersed part of the jettison stream to burn
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
NoD - you might well be right - I'm sure you are - but I'll leave you to do the test flying if you don't mind. Zillions of volts of electrical energy in close proximity to a flammable gas is not a combination that strikes me as a good insurance risk.
Also, now that I've had a chance to follow up the little voice that was nagging in my head - Airbus340FO, where did you get the inforamtion that Airbus says it's ok to dump in a thunderstorm? Both A343 and A346 QRHs, page 2.09, "Fuel Jettison" 9th line from the top of the page say, and I quote "Do not jettison in a thunderstorm". Not much room for misunderstanding there.
t
Also, now that I've had a chance to follow up the little voice that was nagging in my head - Airbus340FO, where did you get the inforamtion that Airbus says it's ok to dump in a thunderstorm? Both A343 and A346 QRHs, page 2.09, "Fuel Jettison" 9th line from the top of the page say, and I quote "Do not jettison in a thunderstorm". Not much room for misunderstanding there.
t
Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
F111 dump and burn here. http://anthonyjhicks.com/ajh/media.n...256CEC000EF8E5
Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
Navy Adversary,
I have witnessed the RAAF F111 "dump & burn" (when they visited an Airshow at Boscombe Down some years back), the "wave" of heat could be felt easily from the crowdline
Have also been a pax in an aircraft that dumped once - glad to say we were informed by the Flight Deck when it was going to start and how long it would last (could be an alarming sight otherwise) - from witnessing the spectacular volume at which it comes out, have to say I'm surprised it dissipates so quick.
IIRC, we were told it was 40t in about 25mins (this was an L1011).
Incidentally, thought it was known as "adjusting gross weight" and not "dumping" in these politically-correct times?
I have witnessed the RAAF F111 "dump & burn" (when they visited an Airshow at Boscombe Down some years back), the "wave" of heat could be felt easily from the crowdline
Have also been a pax in an aircraft that dumped once - glad to say we were informed by the Flight Deck when it was going to start and how long it would last (could be an alarming sight otherwise) - from witnessing the spectacular volume at which it comes out, have to say I'm surprised it dissipates so quick.
IIRC, we were told it was 40t in about 25mins (this was an L1011).
Incidentally, thought it was known as "adjusting gross weight" and not "dumping" in these politically-correct times?
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
i heard a story from a captain 2 years ago, he once was instructed by greek atc to dump fuel in a holding pattern. the captain obviously replied: unable to comply. after landing he got in a serious discussion with the atc and authorities. at the end he could finally make it clear to them how dangerous such a holding would be.
s.m.
s.m.
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
Widger, i hate to state the obvious but check the date of the first post, date 26th and afternoon are the clue!
I'm sure you're only joking?
I'm sure you're only joking?
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
BenThere,
"I remember the old DC-8 allowed thrust reverser deployment in flight"
Off thread but remember my 3rd ride in a jet (Delta DC-8) as a pax was into Houston amid many, many TS and certainly an impressive big dipper ride with 4 in reverse. Assumed it to be SOP.
"I remember the old DC-8 allowed thrust reverser deployment in flight"
Off thread but remember my 3rd ride in a jet (Delta DC-8) as a pax was into Houston amid many, many TS and certainly an impressive big dipper ride with 4 in reverse. Assumed it to be SOP.
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
Have also been a pax in an aircraft that dumped once - glad to say we were informed by the Flight Deck
As for landing overweight -v- jettisoning after an engine failure immediately after takeoff, I have to admit to have given that situation some thought. (I fly a two engined widebody.) All things being equal, (ie, no high terrain in the overshoot area, a 3600m to 4000m runway, as is usually the case at most airports I find myself using these days), I find myself leaning rather heavily towards the overweight landing option.
My reasons? As opposed to the simulator, where the check captain presses a button that gives you a nice, clean-cut “engine severe/separation at V1+1”, in the real world, the most likely reasons that might cause a usually very reliable engine to give up the ghost at V1+1 have a very good chance to affect the other engine as well. Among these I’d include multiple bird strike, contaminated fuel or foreign object damage. This FOD could be from a blown tyre, (either from my own aircraft or an earlier user of the runway), or debris on the runway, as allegedly caused the Concorde disaster at Paris.
Whatever the cause, I think getting back on the ground without a rush, but without undue delay, is a better option over trolling off to a fuel jettison area that might be quite a few miles away from a quick landing should things start to go pear shaped with the other engine or some other vital system. For those who quote the fact that the aircraft is certified for 180 minutes ETOPS, I think that losing an engine in the cruise is a very different matter (for the reasons I quote above) to losing an engine immediately after takeoff.
I also accept that I may have to re-think these ideas when I start to operate ultra long haul twins (as I soon will be), for these will present me with takeoff weights so much above the recommended max landing weight that the approach speeds will be so high that jettisoning might be a ‘must do’ in all cases except something like an uncontrollable fire.
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Re: Fuel Dumping Does and Don'ts
About a decade ago had a #1 CADC failure on climbout in a 727. This knocks out the Captain's airspeed, altimeter, vsi, and various functions of the autopilot and makes for a CAT 1 airplane. The departure airfield had the best weather for a hand-flown approach. We were overweight for landing so advised Memphis Center that we had to dump fuel for landing. Their reply was to fly heading 270 and, "Dump over Arkansas." This, of course, during the Clinton presidency and seemed rather appropriate.
By the way, the sim. does a good job of preparing for trhis contingency. As the fuel dumps and you get lighter you can feel the difference while hand flying. Shot the approach, landed, and transloaded the freight onto another airplane.
MS
By the way, the sim. does a good job of preparing for trhis contingency. As the fuel dumps and you get lighter you can feel the difference while hand flying. Shot the approach, landed, and transloaded the freight onto another airplane.
MS