Wx aviodance.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wx aviodance.
DIY wx avoidance is dangerous. On LHR approach we are already vectoring traffic close together so, if you need it, please ask before you do it. It will be a very rare occasion that we are not able to help you. . .. .It happened twice in the space of 3 minutes this week, presumably going around the same "cloud" (as it was later described). On both occasions it involved traffic turning downwind off LAM. Both a/c stopped their turn 30 degrees short of the mark and it put them both in direct conflict with traffic turning onto the ILS. On both occasions action had to be taken to ensure separation (not to mention personal cleanliness). . .. .I know the r/t loading is high (in fact if pilots feel unable to ask for help due r/t loading then it must be too high) but that is a separate issue. We won't see that you have rolled out until after 2 or 3 sweeps of the radar and that can be too late to react. Remember also, TCAS doesn't give azimuth and basing action on it has already caused a near miss. . .. .No NAME, no pack drill. The AIRLINE concerned has been notified but everybody needs to understand. (The same applies to slow rates of turn which is why we sometimes slow traffic to 180kts before the downwind turn, in strong wind. We expect/ need rate one or better.). .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> point 4
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Surrey
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the risk of irritating a director (!) , a Captains first priority is the safety of his aircraft and its occupants. If avoiding action is required immediately then that is that.. .It is always necesseray to inform ATC first, however, if you can't get a word in, that does not mean you fly through the CB!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
V-j, it's true that if you can't get a word in you are not going to fly through cb just because you don't have permission to turn. You do however have to say something at the earliest possible time, and if it's causing a problem and a fellow professional has asked you nicely why not just listen to what he has to say?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VJ, I understand your point, captains responsibility and all that and that is fair enough... Trouble is that in taking wx avoidance without prior approval, these captains did just that, they endangered the safety of their aircraft, and others. . .. .There was no reported CB activity (if there is we tend to use vertical separation to give us a safety margin.) and when questioned the second captain said "... it was to go around a cloud". Compelling grounds for going it alone? Doesn't seem so to me. . .. .Whilst it is and issue, is the fear of litigation perhaps making more of wx than ought to be? Back in the days of Dan Air 1-11s and B727s, nobody seemed to care and I don't recall any problems.. .. .point 4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While we try our hardest no to upset anyone the order still remains - aviate, navigate, communicate. . .. .We would not deliberately disobey an ATC order and not notify them unless we absolutely had to and we couldn't get a word in.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The road to undermine the commanders authority is a very risky and dangerous one. 120.4 makes a very valid point however. I have flown with captains who upon approaching innocuous cu bark "tell em were goin 20 left for weather" and feel because number two will make it so, they just make the turn, even thiough the poor sodin` f/o cant get a word in edgeways. The lengths I`ve seen some people go to, to avoid fairly benign weather is at times outlandish.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have noticed that a minority of pilots will deviate for the slightest of Cumulus - come on chaps, let's not stuff up the directors too much. A large Cb is one thing - a bit of Cu with a bit of rain coming out from below is another.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
120.4. .. .We will obviously try our hardest to tell you prior to avoiding action, and if not possible, as soon as possible thereafter.. .. .However, please bear in mind the Dallas TriStar accident - they were still going after the Flt Crew's families years after because the CVR caught the crew commenting on a "rain shower" - and as the lawyers said "and they still flew into it...!". .. .We also have the same problem with radars - ours only viewing an arc forwards, so its only as we get to within, say 60 deg of the shower (plus any time for a sweep) that we "see" the shower, hence may need to roll out early etc.. .. .Finally - R/T loading. Yes - the frequencies at LHR are far too congested, and this is the real cause. If you have to get a special concession to allow "callsign only to 120.4" then someone is admitting that the frequency is overloaded... We had the same discussion recently about lczr then GS intercepts a few days back.... .. .NoD
There does seem to be a huge range of opinion on what needs to be diverted around when it comes to CB's and towering CU. A lot of the time when flying around the London TMA in and out of Heathrow you hear pilots asking for steers around really pretty tame looking weather. If it looks like we will only get a little bump then I would rather fly through than load up an already busy ATCO. It is simply not realistic to avoid everything, turbulence is just part of flying and it is not possible to always provide a "magic carpet" ride for the pax. . .. .As far as DIY weather avoidance goes, it seems to me that even a fairly large CB is going to make much less of a bump than smacking a 747 over the centre of London!. Unless I felt that the aircraft was in REAL danger, and lets be honest, that is very very rare, I'll take my chances with the weather and maintain separation.
There was a very good article in the BALPA log a few years ago about a Captain who got taken to court for "hurting" one of the crew due turbulance in a hold. (Wake I think) Anyway the bit I alwys remember was the first interview with the lawyer.Quote " Captain why did you recklesly fly your aircraft through this area of turbulance". .Not good to deviate without permission. But sometimes I have thourght of squarking radio failure when I have not been able to get a word in entering London TMA.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: England
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All valid points so far i would say and can only add that if you can get in on the frequency give us a fighting chance, how far you need to turn for how long and direction (if you can go left or right tell us it can cut down on a lot of co ordination), but i also understand that there are times in the situations when everyone is looking for Wx avoidance that you may not be able to get in on the RT and may feel the need to avoid, as has been mentioned already in these situations controller workload rockets and we may not notice your turn till too late so avoiding action could well result. Afterall everybody is aiming for the same gap.. .. .Icepack in current climate i would stronly suggest not Sq radio fail in the London TMA or any other area unless you really are, the result may be surprising!. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 21:21: Message edited by: MacDoris ]</small>
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've always thought that the professional way to fly transport catagory aircraft was to minimize abrupt movements of the aircraft when you have pax on board. Dodging around buildups keeps the pax and the trolley dollies (as you call them over there) happy.. .We have a crew that has been cited by the NBTSB (not the FAA) for causing a flight attendant to be seriously injured during turbulence. In the terminal area when everyone should be down you do need to stay on the vector, especially under final approach. I wonder, though how much noise abatement has hindered the availability of airspace to allow wx deviations.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, it isn't a perfect world and I don't suppose there is a perfect answer to this. . .. .One thing is for sure, the r/t loadings at LHR are too high. Nigel is right, "Callsign only..." tells us something. I have often wondered how I would safely cope with a Mayday on 120.4, especially if on 09L and doing some right-siders as well. Sure, spare r/t is an essential part of the safety infrastructure but to move our traffic through a single final director we have had to do away with it. Unwise, I think, but so far, so good. (Mixed mode with two Final directors would reduce individual loading but that is politically very difficult... unless we had an accident that implicated r/t loading, then I am sure a way would be found.) For what it is worth, it has been deemed that just 5 seconds is the longest time that the final director can be safely without r/t access and we have a special handset that bypasses everything else to give us immediate fallback.. .. .I don't want to upset anybody over this I just want to bring it to the fore so that aircrew are aware of the impact DIY has on us. We already play it tight so if you pinch a bit too, it can get frightening. I guess I am asking you to be certain that you HAVE to turn for SAFETY rather than discomfort. If the wx is THAT bad we would usually be expecting it and have flowed accordingly.. .. .Point 4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
Guest
Posts: n/a
Last year while doing the final director position at LHR an A320 didn't tell me it had stopped its turn to avoid weather.. .. .End result was separation rapidly lost and my giving avoiding action at the same time as the A320 got a TCAS RA.. .. .Well that wasn't the end end result, I got suspended from duty as well while the circumstances of the loss of separation were investigated.. .. .Unfortunately our highly processed radar has no weather information displayed on it, so we can't see any wx and just have to sit and wait to see who wants to go where when avoiding. There is a certain amount of inconsistency here though, where one aircraft goes left, right, left, right etc to avoid, the one 5 miles in trail doesn't say a word and just seems to go happily in a straight line.. .. .But whatever, we will do everything possible to accomodate your requests, short of letting you bump into someone else. But please try not to go wandering off on your own, it doesn't do my blood pressure or grey hair count very much good at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .WF.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"We will obviously try our hardest to tell you prior to avoiding action, and if not possible, as soon as possible thereafter." . .Not trying to pick holes but hopefully clarifying the difference to keep all in tune, Avoiding Action is to miss another plane, WX avoidance is the topic which can lead to the former.. .. .This has been battled out before, and to no real conclusion. Obviously we as ATC need to know your actions and will do the best to maintain separation. Our goal is to keep it, so any loss is a mark in the book, be it our fault or not, we are still scarred. As mentioned above though, pilots are there to assure the safety of pax and plane so will also do what is neccessary. But we DO NEED TO KNOW what you are doing. I don't know about other controllers, but I definately would congratulate any pilot who can't get in on congested RTf to Sq MayDay if they felt so required. The alarm bells would go crazy and full attention certainly given, you'll definately get your space on the frequency now. As for the legalities......... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mostly FL360-380, M0.78
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During timebuilding in Florida the US ATC did a great job vectoring around weather as they have wx radar, but as far as I know Europe seem to be way behind not being able to do the same .. ??
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not complying with ATC instructions to...."fly around a cloud"? Perhaps the "Captain" involved should turn in his ATPL and stick to private VFR flying.. .Doesn't sound to me as though he should be in an airliner.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We get a lot of weather avoidance up here north of the border and generally the rt loading is such that pilots can get in and tell us what they are doing. When we know the weather is there, we DO use vertical separation, it gives us that bit more flexibility, having never worked at TC I can't comment on the procedures etc, but at the end of the day, the ultimate responsibility for the safety of an aircraft lies with the commander of that aircraft, if (s)he feels the need to avoid the weather then so be it, but get in and tell us asap, or sqawk 7700 if you can't. The paperwork for a loss of separation is nothing compared to losing an a/c (I've had both), and beiong suspended until the subsequent investigation clears the ATCO then so be it, personally I'd be glad of the time off, knowing that I'd done nothing wrong!!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: EGHH
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can't see the point of flying round clouds myself except when the safety of the aircraft is at stake. I do it in my 172/warrior so why can't the 'big boys'. Surely accepting turbulance comes with the territory. You would get more than a few nasty bumps if cloud avoidance caused a collision.