dozy roster at EZY
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: sou
dozy roster at EZY
The letter in Flight international this week “DOZY ROSTERS” highlights what is happening at ezy, the company say only Gatwick is affected (due to pilots living to far away), is this correct or does it happen at the other bases as per the letter?
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,753
Likes: 684
From: Member of the 32% & 56.4% club.
All is not as it would seem with the letter. The rumour is that it was sent to Flight maliciously. Next weeks letters should prove to be interesting.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
From: North of London
It is always disappointing to see a good name maliciously smeared through the mud, which may be the case here in this weeks Flight International letter. It seems the real author has neither the guts nor the decency to let us know who he really is, or alternatively the sense to withold his name. As to whether his claims are valid or not, please read the thread running concurrently about "Pilots leaving easyJet" to find out for yourself!
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 115
From: UK
I have just reread the letter in FI and I can see no mention of easyJet in the text.
Could it be that you guys have just dropped a colleaugue in the mire by associating his "anonymous company" letter by telling the world that the company concerned is easyJet.
On a side issue, I frequently do 5 or 6 earlies on the trot but then I have 6 days off. Perhaps that's the rub?
Could it be that you guys have just dropped a colleaugue in the mire by associating his "anonymous company" letter by telling the world that the company concerned is easyJet.
On a side issue, I frequently do 5 or 6 earlies on the trot but then I have 6 days off. Perhaps that's the rub?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: sou
Is 5.2.5.4 really working else where in the network, personally it does not suit me at all. In June it was easier to count the sectors where one of you did not have an uncontrolled micro sleep or knap. The company say that they are unaware of problem other than LGW.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 0
From: UK
Globalwarming
Just responding to the 5 earlies is fatigueing claim, not heard any comment about 5 lates being fatigueing so seems a sensible idea. 5 earlies 4 days off, 5 lates 2 days off. Would this give a better recovery from 5 earlies? and a little bit of protection to ending late, 2 days off and starting early.
You have to consider that 5/2/5/4 = 136 days off a year. OK you getting done on your leave but there's plenty of shift workers out there who do 5/2 and plenty of Pilots who get 104 days off...
Just responding to the 5 earlies is fatigueing claim, not heard any comment about 5 lates being fatigueing so seems a sensible idea. 5 earlies 4 days off, 5 lates 2 days off. Would this give a better recovery from 5 earlies? and a little bit of protection to ending late, 2 days off and starting early.
You have to consider that 5/2/5/4 = 136 days off a year. OK you getting done on your leave but there's plenty of shift workers out there who do 5/2 and plenty of Pilots who get 104 days off...
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
From: Milton Keynes Bucks U.K.
EJ were trying to get the CAA to increase the limit above 900 per year as 90% of the pilots at Luton and Newcastle are at the limit.
5.2.5.4 seems to only be working in the small bases eg. GLA EDI where they don’t do 5 real earlies 4 sectors max duities min rest.
Cap360 your comment about uncontrolled micro sleep or knap. How sad that this is now the norm, but captains have started filing ASR’s
I know of 2 FO’s that have had to leave because their GP told them that this job was killing them. They were always fatigue. One was even seeing a specialist but in the end quit.
Mr Angry 136 days off a year sounds good but if you have to sleep for 100 that only leaves 36 which is not so good.
5.2.5.4 seems to only be working in the small bases eg. GLA EDI where they don’t do 5 real earlies 4 sectors max duities min rest.
Cap360 your comment about uncontrolled micro sleep or knap. How sad that this is now the norm, but captains have started filing ASR’s
I know of 2 FO’s that have had to leave because their GP told them that this job was killing them. They were always fatigue. One was even seeing a specialist but in the end quit.
Mr Angry 136 days off a year sounds good but if you have to sleep for 100 that only leaves 36 which is not so good.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hotair, slightly ott. Even if it took 2 days off to recover from 5 earlies then your still looking at 104 days off a year which = 52 weekends off.
I'm not saying i agree with 5254 i just suggested a tweak that may suit certain crew.
I'm not saying i agree with 5254 i just suggested a tweak that may suit certain crew.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: knajpa
the problem is that the easy way does not allow sufficient rest after the five earlies. After two days off I still don't want to go back to work. It needs to be four early/two off or five early/three off at least!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Beds
It seemed a perfectly fair letter to me. The guy's principle complaint is against the CAA for granting the alleviation to the airline. Some years ago I took part in a fatigue study carried out by DERA (now Qinetiq) into the effects of early starts. Pilots were never allowed to see the report (probably far too contentious) but the received wisdom was that performance dropped off half way through the third early. Now, it seems the CAA have yielded to the commercial pressure from the airline.
Remember, all the airline needs is a chit from the CAA saying they can roster this and that. Then, even with a view from the office of a smoking hull off the end of the runway, they can say they did the right thing if the paper trail looks right.
So, if fatigue is cited as a cause of the accident, then the blame goes back to the CAA. If the CAA has given the alleviation based on scientific evidence from Qinietiq then they can cite that and keep their car park passes etc.
Now . . . Whilst I was taking part in the fatigue trial with DERA I had a couple of long conversations (anonymously) with one of the scientists. I didn't get any sense that they thought five early starts was okay. As I recall they recommended a limit of three early starts.
So, the letter in flight is entirely correct in my view. The writer points the finger at the CAA. The question is: why did they give the airline the alleviation in the face of the evidence?
Remember, all the airline needs is a chit from the CAA saying they can roster this and that. Then, even with a view from the office of a smoking hull off the end of the runway, they can say they did the right thing if the paper trail looks right.
So, if fatigue is cited as a cause of the accident, then the blame goes back to the CAA. If the CAA has given the alleviation based on scientific evidence from Qinietiq then they can cite that and keep their car park passes etc.
Now . . . Whilst I was taking part in the fatigue trial with DERA I had a couple of long conversations (anonymously) with one of the scientists. I didn't get any sense that they thought five early starts was okay. As I recall they recommended a limit of three early starts.
So, the letter in flight is entirely correct in my view. The writer points the finger at the CAA. The question is: why did they give the airline the alleviation in the face of the evidence?
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 582
Likes: 5
From: Alps
Although I obviously do not agree with someone putting somebody elses name to such a letter, WE all have to agree that the letter contains nothing but truth...
Its a shame that the people in charge do not admit this fact...
I think that the current practise, apart from being the most tiredsome is also bloody dangerous.
Its a shame that the people in charge do not admit this fact...
I think that the current practise, apart from being the most tiredsome is also bloody dangerous.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: in the western part of the United State of Europe
Oberst Klink, excuse me for the similarity in screenname!
I must say I appreciate the b*lls Capt Phillips shows by taking the bull by the horns. Whether you agree or not with the contents.
I retyped the text from Flight below:
New roster is a dozy idea
In the past, the UK Civil Aviation Authority would legally allow pilots to work three early mornings in a row as stated in company manuals.
Suddenly, we can now work five, usually starting between 05:00 and 06:00, with two days off, followed by five late duties, then four days off.
My colleagues and I are now falling asleep regularly on days four and five. What will happen when both fall asleep at the same time?
Sickness and fatigue levels have increased because of the new roster and staff morale is at an all-time low.
The new roster has also reduced leave by a week, and although we apparently get more days off throughout the year, we will be too tired to enjoy them and will instead use them to catch up on lost sleep. Flight and duty times are there for a reason.
We shouldn't always work to the maximum. How can he CAA allow five earlies in a row?
I just hope and pray that two pilots don't fall asleep at the same time.
What would paying customers think if they knew their professional pilots were asleep at the cockpit?
Capt xxxxxxxxxx
Luton, Bedfordshire, UK
edited out the name to calm down mr. Zulu. If it was not him writing the letter, how come his name has been published?
I must say I appreciate the b*lls Capt Phillips shows by taking the bull by the horns. Whether you agree or not with the contents.
I retyped the text from Flight below:
New roster is a dozy idea
In the past, the UK Civil Aviation Authority would legally allow pilots to work three early mornings in a row as stated in company manuals.
Suddenly, we can now work five, usually starting between 05:00 and 06:00, with two days off, followed by five late duties, then four days off.
My colleagues and I are now falling asleep regularly on days four and five. What will happen when both fall asleep at the same time?
Sickness and fatigue levels have increased because of the new roster and staff morale is at an all-time low.
The new roster has also reduced leave by a week, and although we apparently get more days off throughout the year, we will be too tired to enjoy them and will instead use them to catch up on lost sleep. Flight and duty times are there for a reason.
We shouldn't always work to the maximum. How can he CAA allow five earlies in a row?
I just hope and pray that two pilots don't fall asleep at the same time.
What would paying customers think if they knew their professional pilots were asleep at the cockpit?
Capt xxxxxxxxxx
Luton, Bedfordshire, UK
edited out the name to calm down mr. Zulu. If it was not him writing the letter, how come his name has been published?
Last edited by klink; 12th November 2005 at 16:43.