bmi Redundancies
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Several people have tried to explain this but it's not getting through is it? I'll have one last try.
It is a one way street. Up until recently that was exactly how bmi pilots wanted it. To open it up two way would have meant giving up some of the protection the current agreement gives them.
There are two companies, bmi and bmir. They both have their own AOC, contracts of employment, crew councils and AFS or Memorandum of Agreement with the respective crew organisations.
Under a written agreement between the two companies some pilots have transferred from bmir to bmi. To do so they had to meet several criteria and could only transfer according to the restrictions in that agreement. At the time the agreement was considered to be very protective of bmi pilots and rightly so. When pilots transferred they left the employment of bmir and signed contracts with bmi.
When they changed company they also changed representative body from the independant bmir crew council to the bmi BALPA council and from the bmir MoA to the bmi AFS.
However, there is a clause in the agreement under which they transferred which stipulates that for the purposes of redundancy and various other purposes their date of joining bmi would be the same as their date of joining bmir or it's predecessor. I don't know for sure but my guess is it's in their contract also.
That's the whole point that some people have not grasped. These pilots have a contract of employment with bmi. No one at bmi, including the tranferees, has a contract of employment or any other agreement, with bmir. Until a few weeks ago no-one would have wanted one.
As I said earlier there is no transfer agreement from bmi to bmir and no-one has ever wanted one. If the bmi BALPA Council tried to negotiate one no doubt it would be agreed with exactly the same terms as the bmir to bmi one. First Officer entry only, bottom of the seniority list, lowest base bid priority, simulator check and interview and only when bmi can afford to lose them and bmir have a need. Of course they would be entitled to expect their date of joining bmir for redundancy purposes to be the date they joined bmi. The alternative would be a truly open doorway between the two. Captains transferring etc etc.
Six months ago that would have been laughed out of sight by bmi pilots. When the dust settles perhaps BALPA should approach bmi and bmir to see if they can reach such an agreement. Right now bmir don't have any vacancies but who knows in the future? It might be a lot more useful than a pointless scope agreement that simply reduces bmi's room to manouvre and in the long term puts more jobs at risk.
"Redundancy? Don't be stupid there's a worldwide pilot shortage!"
For the seven it's a good job somebody had a little bit of foresight. Perhaps the man in ABZ is a bit smarter than folk think.
My opinion? The current agreement is good. It protects bmi senior pilots and it gives those transferring an incentive. They are quite happy to go to the bottom for promotion etc and work their way up but I think they deserve to be rewarded for length of service to the group. If that clause was not there no-one would transfer and a few months ago there was a need for them to go and a career structure was considered vital. It's only my opinion and I understand how those who have been unlucky feel but no-one meant for you to suffer. If someone told you life is fair they were lying. I'm sorry.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
It is a one way street. Up until recently that was exactly how bmi pilots wanted it. To open it up two way would have meant giving up some of the protection the current agreement gives them.
There are two companies, bmi and bmir. They both have their own AOC, contracts of employment, crew councils and AFS or Memorandum of Agreement with the respective crew organisations.
Under a written agreement between the two companies some pilots have transferred from bmir to bmi. To do so they had to meet several criteria and could only transfer according to the restrictions in that agreement. At the time the agreement was considered to be very protective of bmi pilots and rightly so. When pilots transferred they left the employment of bmir and signed contracts with bmi.
When they changed company they also changed representative body from the independant bmir crew council to the bmi BALPA council and from the bmir MoA to the bmi AFS.
However, there is a clause in the agreement under which they transferred which stipulates that for the purposes of redundancy and various other purposes their date of joining bmi would be the same as their date of joining bmir or it's predecessor. I don't know for sure but my guess is it's in their contract also.
That's the whole point that some people have not grasped. These pilots have a contract of employment with bmi. No one at bmi, including the tranferees, has a contract of employment or any other agreement, with bmir. Until a few weeks ago no-one would have wanted one.
As I said earlier there is no transfer agreement from bmi to bmir and no-one has ever wanted one. If the bmi BALPA Council tried to negotiate one no doubt it would be agreed with exactly the same terms as the bmir to bmi one. First Officer entry only, bottom of the seniority list, lowest base bid priority, simulator check and interview and only when bmi can afford to lose them and bmir have a need. Of course they would be entitled to expect their date of joining bmir for redundancy purposes to be the date they joined bmi. The alternative would be a truly open doorway between the two. Captains transferring etc etc.
Six months ago that would have been laughed out of sight by bmi pilots. When the dust settles perhaps BALPA should approach bmi and bmir to see if they can reach such an agreement. Right now bmir don't have any vacancies but who knows in the future? It might be a lot more useful than a pointless scope agreement that simply reduces bmi's room to manouvre and in the long term puts more jobs at risk.
"Redundancy? Don't be stupid there's a worldwide pilot shortage!"
For the seven it's a good job somebody had a little bit of foresight. Perhaps the man in ABZ is a bit smarter than folk think.
My opinion? The current agreement is good. It protects bmi senior pilots and it gives those transferring an incentive. They are quite happy to go to the bottom for promotion etc and work their way up but I think they deserve to be rewarded for length of service to the group. If that clause was not there no-one would transfer and a few months ago there was a need for them to go and a career structure was considered vital. It's only my opinion and I understand how those who have been unlucky feel but no-one meant for you to suffer. If someone told you life is fair they were lying. I'm sorry.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Desert
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember in 1990,whilst then I was at Midland as junior jet FO,being balloted along with all the other pilots:-
1) Across the board pay cut of 4%
or
2) 30 lay offs from the bottom.
Result?
A clear vote for the lay offs,I kept my job,but I was shocked at the result and attitude by the "Im alright jack' contingent,4% was a small price to pay.
Midland re hired most of the unfortunates,many cadets amongst them,only to lay them off AGAIN the following winter,needless to say,being at the drafty end of any list is not comfortable,many went elsewhere to major carriers at the first chance.
Life at Midland hasnt changed
1) Across the board pay cut of 4%
or
2) 30 lay offs from the bottom.
Result?
A clear vote for the lay offs,I kept my job,but I was shocked at the result and attitude by the "Im alright jack' contingent,4% was a small price to pay.
Midland re hired most of the unfortunates,many cadets amongst them,only to lay them off AGAIN the following winter,needless to say,being at the drafty end of any list is not comfortable,many went elsewhere to major carriers at the first chance.
Life at Midland hasnt changed
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Anywhere but London, I hate the place
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bash
(bmi transfer to bmir).
Not true. I know of one pilot who has been trying for nearly two years to get to bmir and has lots of correspondence, some promises, but no deal at all. His circumstances are personal - desperate to change base - but he can't manage it. In fact, he was told that his service with bmi wouldn't count!......
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Anoxic ]
Until a few weeks ago no-one would have wanted one.
Not true. I know of one pilot who has been trying for nearly two years to get to bmir and has lots of correspondence, some promises, but no deal at all. His circumstances are personal - desperate to change base - but he can't manage it. In fact, he was told that his service with bmi wouldn't count!......
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Anoxic ]
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anoxic
Missed the point again. Your chum wanted to transfer to bmir, presumably with his command or seniority, with his choice of base,and probably his salary and pension. What he would have not have wanted is a reciprocal agreement. First Officers only, year one salary, bottom of the seniority list, bottom of the base bids etc. He would have gone to ABZ for at least a year before he got to his choice of base. However, his service with bmi would have kept him off the redundancy list now. Actually I think there were several bmi pilots who would have liked to transfer but not on those terms. If bmi pilots want an agreement to transfer they should ask their BALPA council to negotiate it. Whatever they ask for, the bmir crew council will demand exactly the same for their members from bmi.
The point I was answering is why can bmi pilots not take the jobs of bmir pilots instead of being made redundant.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
Missed the point again. Your chum wanted to transfer to bmir, presumably with his command or seniority, with his choice of base,and probably his salary and pension. What he would have not have wanted is a reciprocal agreement. First Officers only, year one salary, bottom of the seniority list, bottom of the base bids etc. He would have gone to ABZ for at least a year before he got to his choice of base. However, his service with bmi would have kept him off the redundancy list now. Actually I think there were several bmi pilots who would have liked to transfer but not on those terms. If bmi pilots want an agreement to transfer they should ask their BALPA council to negotiate it. Whatever they ask for, the bmir crew council will demand exactly the same for their members from bmi.
The point I was answering is why can bmi pilots not take the jobs of bmir pilots instead of being made redundant.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So would one of the seven/eight/twelve ex-commuter people care to post verbatim the relevant section of their contract so we can see exactly what was, and was not, agreed in writing when they joined bmi.
At least it should stop the bickering. It probably won't do much for the bad taste still lingering, though.
At least it should stop the bickering. It probably won't do much for the bad taste still lingering, though.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't have a contract but I can quote from the agreement signed by the Director of Operations of both companies.
"On transferring to British Midland a British Midland Commuter pilot's employment start date will transfer with them as their start date with British Midland."
I know all seven. They did not write the agreement. They have a legal and moral right to be where they are. Persecuting them will not help those who have lost their jobs. Doing our jobs and helping get bmi back on track might do.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
"On transferring to British Midland a British Midland Commuter pilot's employment start date will transfer with them as their start date with British Midland."
I know all seven. They did not write the agreement. They have a legal and moral right to be where they are. Persecuting them will not help those who have lost their jobs. Doing our jobs and helping get bmi back on track might do.
[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Bash ]
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Anywhere but London, I hate the place
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bash
No, I didn't "miss the point". I understand where you're coming from but I wished to point out that this "transfer" is one-sided. My chum wanted to transfer to bmir with his command , yes, because at the time bmir were very short of experience and desperately needed captains (oh joyous days) - but definitely not with his salary and pension - just his joining date. Not possible.
My point is his service with bmi would not have kept him off the bmir redundancy list now.
[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Anoxic ]
No, I didn't "miss the point". I understand where you're coming from but I wished to point out that this "transfer" is one-sided. My chum wanted to transfer to bmir with his command , yes, because at the time bmir were very short of experience and desperately needed captains (oh joyous days) - but definitely not with his salary and pension - just his joining date. Not possible.
My point is his service with bmi would not have kept him off the bmir redundancy list now.
[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Anoxic ]
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: london
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen, I've been wondering where all this them and us started. Coming from the mainline side of the company, and not ever having experienced any of it I have decided that it must be from the other side.
During my time spent in a smaller company that shall remain nameless, I met many people that spent their time wishing for bigger and better things. Sitting on taxiways around the place and seeing envy in peoples eyes as larger jets go by was quite sad in a way as people realised they hadn't aspired to the things that some others may have.
The only thing that I can say to you gentlemen is SIZE REALLY DOESN'T MATTER, or at least that what the misses says!
[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: le loup garou ]
During my time spent in a smaller company that shall remain nameless, I met many people that spent their time wishing for bigger and better things. Sitting on taxiways around the place and seeing envy in peoples eyes as larger jets go by was quite sad in a way as people realised they hadn't aspired to the things that some others may have.
The only thing that I can say to you gentlemen is SIZE REALLY DOESN'T MATTER, or at least that what the misses says!
[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: le loup garou ]
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Le loup garou,
I have worked in different capacities on both sides of the fence!!! In my eyes I would say that "the them and us" attitude is only from a certain few individuals.
The rest of us seem to have enough common decency, to support colleagues and friends from all areas of the business who now find themselves in very difficult situations.
My thoughts and support remain with them.
I have worked in different capacities on both sides of the fence!!! In my eyes I would say that "the them and us" attitude is only from a certain few individuals.
The rest of us seem to have enough common decency, to support colleagues and friends from all areas of the business who now find themselves in very difficult situations.
My thoughts and support remain with them.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Blue sky
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bash, you're right when you say that it's non-sense "persecuting"(a bit too strong a word?)those 7 pilots, and all my support to them(must be awful turning up for work in these days.
But this doesn't change the fact that they have been allowed to keep their seniority,and that it's ufair to those that joined mainline.
OR, also,how about someone that joined as ground staff/ops/C.crew...and LOST theirseniority simply because they transferred department?
If for instance theose 7 worked for klmuk or cityhopper, they wouldn't have kept their seniority going to mainline.
But , i remember correctly,BA has agreed to similar transfer "rghts" for Cityflier pilots.
Unfortunately unions probably didn't conside the possibilty of such a major redundancy crisis,but that should teach us all for the fututre.
One last thing: Anoxic has got a point,if the rule is in place, it shouldnt be one-sided,and seniority should be kept also going from mainline to regional
But this doesn't change the fact that they have been allowed to keep their seniority,and that it's ufair to those that joined mainline.
OR, also,how about someone that joined as ground staff/ops/C.crew...and LOST theirseniority simply because they transferred department?
If for instance theose 7 worked for klmuk or cityhopper, they wouldn't have kept their seniority going to mainline.
But , i remember correctly,BA has agreed to similar transfer "rghts" for Cityflier pilots.
Unfortunately unions probably didn't conside the possibilty of such a major redundancy crisis,but that should teach us all for the fututre.
One last thing: Anoxic has got a point,if the rule is in place, it shouldnt be one-sided,and seniority should be kept also going from mainline to regional
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please re-read the earlier posts. Seniority date was not transferred. The 7 joined the bottom of the mainline seniority list. However, they kept their date of joining the group. It was not necessary to have this in the transfer agreement or alter the AFS. I am sure you will find that it is implied by UK employment law which overrides any internal company rules/procedures.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok I'll say it agin. Obviously some of you can't read, even though you can type, and some simply stick their heads in the sand and ignore ( must be bmi managers).
Seniority and start date are not the same; the people in question have employee rights which are enshrined in law. The AFS is simply an agreement, your contractual rights, between BALPA (who negotiate on your behalf) and bmi.
Over riding that contract are your legal employee rights. GOTTIT!!!
Whether hayrick, bash or anyone else (me included) doesnt like it we have to lump it; only a change in the law will make any difference. The folks who retained their jobs at the "expense" of othre actually had longevity of service to protect them.
Seniority and start date are not the same; the people in question have employee rights which are enshrined in law. The AFS is simply an agreement, your contractual rights, between BALPA (who negotiate on your behalf) and bmi.
Over riding that contract are your legal employee rights. GOTTIT!!!
Whether hayrick, bash or anyone else (me included) doesnt like it we have to lump it; only a change in the law will make any difference. The folks who retained their jobs at the "expense" of othre actually had longevity of service to protect them.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's just have the relevant Act and Section - and date - of the 'employment law' referred to in some of the above posts, plus any recent case law decisions. Then we can base our arguements on fact, or otherwise.
Nebulous claims of 'it's the law' may be correct. If so, let's see what the relevant section says, and whether it is pertinent to this case.
My guess is that all those above claiming to be 'Midland' pilots are in fact former BusinessAir/Commuter people now working for bmir, who feel compelled by association to argue the case for the seven/eight/twelve. I can't say I blame them - it's human nature.
It's also human nature to fight tooth and nail to protect one's hard earned position in a respected company, and the security/income/mortgage it provides.
As has been said earlier, this was kept very quiet and, apart from a point of principle, would not have mattered much if things had remained as they were.
This is a good lesson for the future - watch what the lawyers are agreeing behind your backs.
However, bmi lawyers have not had a great track record in the past.
Nebulous claims of 'it's the law' may be correct. If so, let's see what the relevant section says, and whether it is pertinent to this case.
My guess is that all those above claiming to be 'Midland' pilots are in fact former BusinessAir/Commuter people now working for bmir, who feel compelled by association to argue the case for the seven/eight/twelve. I can't say I blame them - it's human nature.
It's also human nature to fight tooth and nail to protect one's hard earned position in a respected company, and the security/income/mortgage it provides.
As has been said earlier, this was kept very quiet and, apart from a point of principle, would not have mattered much if things had remained as they were.
This is a good lesson for the future - watch what the lawyers are agreeing behind your backs.
However, bmi lawyers have not had a great track record in the past.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jesus Christ I give up! The lawyers did not agree it the management did. It's got nothing to do with the seniority list and everything to do with length of service. (Thank you PDG for trying to get that one through!)The transfer agreement is a one way street because that's the way it was meant to be. If a bmir captain who lives in London could have gone with his command to LHR then I'm sure the bmi captain in LBA could have had the same deal. As for them and us and jealousy? The vast majority of senior bmir pilots would not and did not even contemplate transferring to bmi. Most like their job and lifestyle too much and certainly don't have a problem with size! The transfer agreement was put in place to keep the young and ambitious within the bmi group. The length of service clause was fair and is legally binding. If you don't agree and want to challenge it get yourself a lawyer (or get BALPA to shell out). I say again, to all those who have had bad news, I am truly sorry. But, banging on about this issue will not achieve anything. I'm now going to talk to a brick wall. Perhaps it will understand!
