bmi Redundancies
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Arkroyal,
Good point, which does make a lot of sense. Of course it would all depend on what their contract stipulates.
Here's an idea. What about having a group seniority list, for the purpose of redundancies? Everyone is added as per their date of joining the group, and if the axe starts to swing, those at the bottom get 'chopped'.
Thoughts anyone?
Good point, which does make a lot of sense. Of course it would all depend on what their contract stipulates.
Here's an idea. What about having a group seniority list, for the purpose of redundancies? Everyone is added as per their date of joining the group, and if the axe starts to swing, those at the bottom get 'chopped'.
Thoughts anyone?
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Actjag, Forgive me if I am wrong but doesn,t the fact that the guys from bmir that have jumped up the bmi seniority list with regards to the redundancies already suggest that this is already in force to some degree.
This does not mean that I am complaining about recent events, its every man/woman for themselves. Good luck to them.
This does not mean that I am complaining about recent events, its every man/woman for themselves. Good luck to them.
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Golly, I do seem to have rattled some cots!
My original message on this thread was to offer my sympathy and wish good luck to those made redundant. However, I felt I had to support the magnificent seven(?) and explain why they had not been made redundant at this time. Pauldegearup has explained it much better than I could. (understandable given his position).
We all started on senecas or the equivalent and I didn't mean to make anyone cry, when I highlighted the recent cadets relative experience levels in the group. While success in winning a cadetship is something to be very proud of, you boys and girls really must learn to control your egos.
I understand that you want to explore every avenue to safeguard your jobs, but we are talking about seven(?) people out of one hundred and nine. It may be better to take it on the chin than go out fighting and make a dubious name for yourself. When the time comes for recruitment,you may be remembered for the wrong reasons. Moreover, many of you may find that the offer of re-employment will come from bmir.
Perhaps we can share a friendly beer on my next LHR nightstop?
My original message on this thread was to offer my sympathy and wish good luck to those made redundant. However, I felt I had to support the magnificent seven(?) and explain why they had not been made redundant at this time. Pauldegearup has explained it much better than I could. (understandable given his position).
We all started on senecas or the equivalent and I didn't mean to make anyone cry, when I highlighted the recent cadets relative experience levels in the group. While success in winning a cadetship is something to be very proud of, you boys and girls really must learn to control your egos.
I understand that you want to explore every avenue to safeguard your jobs, but we are talking about seven(?) people out of one hundred and nine. It may be better to take it on the chin than go out fighting and make a dubious name for yourself. When the time comes for recruitment,you may be remembered for the wrong reasons. Moreover, many of you may find that the offer of re-employment will come from bmir.
Perhaps we can share a friendly beer on my next LHR nightstop?
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Regarding bmir pilts transferring to bmi being merely a 'change of fleet'.
Were I to transfer from another base to LHR I would under the bmi AFS be entitled to a relocation package.
It is my understanding that such a package was denied to those transfering from bmir as bmi said they were NEW JOINERS.
The company is playing a clever game here. Sadly the losers are the bmir guys who are being villified by some mainline guys whilst being shafted in the wallet by the company.
Were I to transfer from another base to LHR I would under the bmi AFS be entitled to a relocation package.
It is my understanding that such a package was denied to those transfering from bmir as bmi said they were NEW JOINERS.
The company is playing a clever game here. Sadly the losers are the bmir guys who are being villified by some mainline guys whilst being shafted in the wallet by the company.
Join Date: Sep 2000
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How about taking another look at the problem from a slightly different perspective ?
Most pilots will work 20 days in each 28 day period;that's 20 x 13 periods in a year = 260 days. If you then add in recurrent training and leave you probably reduce that by 5 days for recurrent and 28 for leave, so each person works 260 - 33= 227 days per year. Which is roughly 33 wks per 52.
If the company has 600 pilots the total work available is 600 x 33 wks = 19800 wks per year.If you need to shed 117 pilots that leaves 483 to do the work; which means each person now has to do 40 weeks per year.
If every pilot took the equivalent of 7 weeks unpaid leave spread out over the year,( that would work out at about 4 days unpaid in every 28 ) or took a pay cut of about 20 % you could keep everyone in a job, keep them current and the capacity to expand the network instantly when times get better !
Is something along those lines worth considering ?
Most pilots will work 20 days in each 28 day period;that's 20 x 13 periods in a year = 260 days. If you then add in recurrent training and leave you probably reduce that by 5 days for recurrent and 28 for leave, so each person works 260 - 33= 227 days per year. Which is roughly 33 wks per 52.
If the company has 600 pilots the total work available is 600 x 33 wks = 19800 wks per year.If you need to shed 117 pilots that leaves 483 to do the work; which means each person now has to do 40 weeks per year.
If every pilot took the equivalent of 7 weeks unpaid leave spread out over the year,( that would work out at about 4 days unpaid in every 28 ) or took a pay cut of about 20 % you could keep everyone in a job, keep them current and the capacity to expand the network instantly when times get better !
Is something along those lines worth considering ?
Just a numbered other
Batfink
Not surprised that you 'don't want them back'. However, that would be the fairest option UMHO.
Stan deasy makes a good point that the company are indeed using both sides of the argument to its own advantage, BTW I have not spotted any 'villification' of the 7 from mainline pilots. Budvar and others are being most polite. This is not a personal attack, merely an attempt to discuss the problem and come up with the fairest solution.
Paul de gear. Quite. an across the board short time working of, say, 80% would tide the company over in the short term, save jobs, and keep all but the 'I'm all right Jacks' happy.
Now, Batfink, you've given me an idea! If I can just persuade the company to recognise my time in the navy I should be able to progress my seniority into single figures. To me that's about as sensible as joining a new company and leapfrogging the peeps already there
Not surprised that you 'don't want them back'. However, that would be the fairest option UMHO.
Stan deasy makes a good point that the company are indeed using both sides of the argument to its own advantage, BTW I have not spotted any 'villification' of the 7 from mainline pilots. Budvar and others are being most polite. This is not a personal attack, merely an attempt to discuss the problem and come up with the fairest solution.
Paul de gear. Quite. an across the board short time working of, say, 80% would tide the company over in the short term, save jobs, and keep all but the 'I'm all right Jacks' happy.
Now, Batfink, you've given me an idea! If I can just persuade the company to recognise my time in the navy I should be able to progress my seniority into single figures. To me that's about as sensible as joining a new company and leapfrogging the peeps already there
Join Date: Dec 1999
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PaulDeGearup,
A nice idea, but it wouldn't work in practice because of a problem with human psychology. It's akin to asking people in the street whether they'd be prepared to pay more income tax in return for a better health service. Most say "Oh yes, most definitely" but when it comes to the secrecy of the ballot box a very different result emerges, as political parties will attest to.
Nobody's going to appear mean and selfish publicly when their colleagues are being made redundant, especially as the plan appears fair to everybody, but if implemented there's little doubt it would cause a great deal of secret, unadmitted resentment across vast swathes of the company. All at a time when you need everyone giving as much extra effort and flexibility as possible.
A nice idea, but it wouldn't work in practice because of a problem with human psychology. It's akin to asking people in the street whether they'd be prepared to pay more income tax in return for a better health service. Most say "Oh yes, most definitely" but when it comes to the secrecy of the ballot box a very different result emerges, as political parties will attest to.
Nobody's going to appear mean and selfish publicly when their colleagues are being made redundant, especially as the plan appears fair to everybody, but if implemented there's little doubt it would cause a great deal of secret, unadmitted resentment across vast swathes of the company. All at a time when you need everyone giving as much extra effort and flexibility as possible.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Cant help but think that we are starting to air our dirty laundry in an inapprpriate forum.
Should this topic not be transferred to our own little piece of heaven or at least lets continue there. After all this is the most action the site has seen in years!!
Should this topic not be transferred to our own little piece of heaven or at least lets continue there. After all this is the most action the site has seen in years!!
Uncle Pete
Join Date: Jul 1999
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My sympathies are with all you guys out there, both bmi and bmir, who have received the letter.
I'm looking at the Voluntary Early Retirement (ER) scheme and hope to make a decision when the necessary info has been supplied by the company for me to pass on to the pension people.
Hopefully that will save at least one job.
Good luck guys
MP
I'm looking at the Voluntary Early Retirement (ER) scheme and hope to make a decision when the necessary info has been supplied by the company for me to pass on to the pension people.
Hopefully that will save at least one job.
Good luck guys
MP
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Bash,
You are a card.....I could laugh all the way to the unemployment office...
I'm not one to refuse beer from anyone Bash so I look forward to it on your next LHR N/stop. Sadly, beer will probably be about £300 a pint by then (expensive even by London standards)...
For my two pence worth, if the 7 guys were taken on in mainline were led to believe it was a job transfer then thats it..no argument -they should be kept on.
If it wasn't under this system, and the job was applied for like any external candidate (ie interview/sim ride) then the question needs to be asked in the future where do people in a similar situation stand?
The transferral system needs to be formalised to make the position transparent to all parties. That way issues like this shouldn't reoccur.
Finally, let me re-iterate once more, this is a thought for the future -not something that should be applied retrospectively.
Best of luck to all affected...
-Goes back to cot to polish ego...........
You are a card.....I could laugh all the way to the unemployment office...
I'm not one to refuse beer from anyone Bash so I look forward to it on your next LHR N/stop. Sadly, beer will probably be about £300 a pint by then (expensive even by London standards)...
For my two pence worth, if the 7 guys were taken on in mainline were led to believe it was a job transfer then thats it..no argument -they should be kept on.
If it wasn't under this system, and the job was applied for like any external candidate (ie interview/sim ride) then the question needs to be asked in the future where do people in a similar situation stand?
The transferral system needs to be formalised to make the position transparent to all parties. That way issues like this shouldn't reoccur.
Finally, let me re-iterate once more, this is a thought for the future -not something that should be applied retrospectively.
Best of luck to all affected...
-Goes back to cot to polish ego...........
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Pauldegearup has explained it much better than I could. (understandable given his position).
Bash me old, do I know you ?
More importantly, do you know me ?
Do you take the Mail On Sunday ?
From the end of Nov it will make extremely fun reading !
Bash me old, do I know you ?
More importantly, do you know me ?
Do you take the Mail On Sunday ?
From the end of Nov it will make extremely fun reading !
Join Date: Oct 2001
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I believe the way from bmir to bmi is by way of a tranfer , it is certain advertised that way in bmi. The interview is called a transfer interview, and the sim ride is the same for all that join bmi. The sad thing is that the transfer agreement only goes one way, we can join you but you can't join us.
When I was interviewed for bmir or Bizzy Air, as it was then, I was told that if I transferred to mainline then the start date with Biz Air would continue to be my seniority date. I believe there is a law which covers this situation but check that one out with yur own bush lawyer.
As far as villification of the seven go, it will only be from those narrow minded enough to think that like that and its unfortunate because it distances the two working groups of pilots. Wouldn't it be more advantageous if we all worked together like friends rather than exersise some moronic form of sibling rivalry.
When I was interviewed for bmir or Bizzy Air, as it was then, I was told that if I transferred to mainline then the start date with Biz Air would continue to be my seniority date. I believe there is a law which covers this situation but check that one out with yur own bush lawyer.
As far as villification of the seven go, it will only be from those narrow minded enough to think that like that and its unfortunate because it distances the two working groups of pilots. Wouldn't it be more advantageous if we all worked together like friends rather than exersise some moronic form of sibling rivalry.
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If the 7 BMIR guys/girls have their BMIR date as their joining date, then anyone who joined BMIR after I joined bmi should be made reundant BEFORE ME!
You can't have it going one way only.
You can't have it going one way only.
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I feel for all you guys (and gals) who are having to leave the Company. I am in a similar situation but not with BMI.
Having seen the mention of LIFO and how it is being applied within your Company, I would like to ask the following question.
Background......My Company joining date does not coincide with my relative position on the pilot seniority list because I transferred within the Company from another job. I've been with the Company for nearly 6 years but only on the pilot seniority list for 20 months. Unfortunately, this places me below the 'cut-off' line when considering only the pilot seniority list and not literally LIFO.
My question is(finally!)....How should someone in those circumstances be treated when redundancies are being considered? (Both with and without the European Law consideration.)
Sorry it was so long!....thanks for your help..........pjumbo
Having seen the mention of LIFO and how it is being applied within your Company, I would like to ask the following question.
Background......My Company joining date does not coincide with my relative position on the pilot seniority list because I transferred within the Company from another job. I've been with the Company for nearly 6 years but only on the pilot seniority list for 20 months. Unfortunately, this places me below the 'cut-off' line when considering only the pilot seniority list and not literally LIFO.
My question is(finally!)....How should someone in those circumstances be treated when redundancies are being considered? (Both with and without the European Law consideration.)
Sorry it was so long!....thanks for your help..........pjumbo
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pjumbo
I think the matter of transfers from bmir rests with the terms of the transfer agreement signed by the management of both companies and the contract of employment of the people in question. That is why this arguement is a bit pointless. Everyone's entitled to an emotional opinion but it's the legal opinion that counts.
I think the matter of transfers from bmir rests with the terms of the transfer agreement signed by the management of both companies and the contract of employment of the people in question. That is why this arguement is a bit pointless. Everyone's entitled to an emotional opinion but it's the legal opinion that counts.
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The unlucky ones at Toad Hall are being told by individual meeting with management whether they still have a job or not. On the surface this would seem a slightly less painful way than the usual 'letter in the post' scenario. However when you have been waiting almost a week for your 'chat', then a letter puts you out of(or in!) your misery a lot quicker. The process is kinder in theory but waiting your turn is torture when all you want to know is, do I have a job or not?
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BMPilot21 - You do have a point. I heard that Virgin originally planned to make its Classic drivers redundant when they parked the fleet. As the most senior pilots, they successfully argued that they should be type converted onto the airbus at the expense of current but less senior airbus crews.
Its not quite the same with us as we have two separate AOCs and two separate seniority lists. If you have nothing to lose try it!
Of course the logical consequence is that you may end up flying a 145 out of ABZ. Is that what you want??
Good luck anyway.
Its not quite the same with us as we have two separate AOCs and two separate seniority lists. If you have nothing to lose try it!
Of course the logical consequence is that you may end up flying a 145 out of ABZ. Is that what you want??
Good luck anyway.
Just a numbered other
Bmpilot21,
You have avery good point there. The rule would appear to be very much a one way street.
Vortillion. You say 'Its not quite the same with us as we have two separate AOCs and two separate seniority lists'. Quite. In fact two separate companies.
Now let me see, 145 out of ABZ, or flipping burgers. Might take a while to make up my mind
You have avery good point there. The rule would appear to be very much a one way street.
Vortillion. You say 'Its not quite the same with us as we have two separate AOCs and two separate seniority lists'. Quite. In fact two separate companies.
Now let me see, 145 out of ABZ, or flipping burgers. Might take a while to make up my mind