bmi Redundancies
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Lets just clear up a few facts in the bmi/bmir debate:
1. Although both groups may be administered by the same team they are still different companies in their own right (otherwise why would they have different names?)
2. The seniority list for bmi in LHR makes no mention of anyone in bmir, in fact I am led to believe that they have their own list.
3. I know that there are people who joined bmir after some who joined bmi main and yet have not been sent 'the letter', so further proving a difference in companies!
4. When those who came from bmir joined bmi they were given a seniority number and placed on a list reflecting the day they started at bmi main.
5. Until 3 weeks ago the above mentioned list made no reference to a bmir joining date.
6. (And finally!) It states nowhere in the AFS or my contract that people joining from bmir, or any other company for that matter, can jump up the list!
Sorry for the rant and, yes it may sound like sour grapes, but it could mean the difference between having and not having a job! Surely we have an agreement to ensure situations like this don't arise and I can't think of a better or more straight forward system than LIFO!
1. Although both groups may be administered by the same team they are still different companies in their own right (otherwise why would they have different names?)
2. The seniority list for bmi in LHR makes no mention of anyone in bmir, in fact I am led to believe that they have their own list.
3. I know that there are people who joined bmir after some who joined bmi main and yet have not been sent 'the letter', so further proving a difference in companies!
4. When those who came from bmir joined bmi they were given a seniority number and placed on a list reflecting the day they started at bmi main.
5. Until 3 weeks ago the above mentioned list made no reference to a bmir joining date.
6. (And finally!) It states nowhere in the AFS or my contract that people joining from bmir, or any other company for that matter, can jump up the list!
Sorry for the rant and, yes it may sound like sour grapes, but it could mean the difference between having and not having a job! Surely we have an agreement to ensure situations like this don't arise and I can't think of a better or more straight forward system than LIFO!
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IMHO, Several things need to be pointed out since everyone is getting so agitated.
BUDVAR is trying to point out that if LIFO is being implemented, it should be done as fairly as possible. He has clearly stated that he is not trying to start a ‘them vs us’ argument or suggest that some individuals should be made redundant over others. The situation as to whether or not bmi and bmir are the same company is the point in question. Moleslayer has mentioned that the precedent was set when LCA was integrated into BMA, which is not what has happened with bmi and bmir/BMC.
EFF-OH says that bmir pilots had to apply for a job, then sit an interview and pass a sim check in order to “change fleets”. This sounds rather like the process all other applicants to bmi had to go through to get the job. Hardly a simple fleet change. Should the bmir pilots then be treated like all the other people who went through the same process, regardless of background?
If bmi and bmir are the same company, then why haven’t the two seniority lists been merged, as would be the case if there had been a takeover. Surely according to EFF-OH and BASH.D.BISHOP, the bmir SAAB/EMB pilots should only be made redundant after those with less service in mainline have gone. Not very fair in my opinion. Also, why do the two companies have separate HQ’s if they are indeed one business. There are many other points that I am sure could be found if necessary, and I don’t think that a BRAL pilot joining BA would be able claim his/her BRAL start date in similar circumstances.
In general, any redundancies are VERY unfortunate and distressing for those affected (I am not too far off the bottom myself) but BUDVAR has a point that must be addressed to ensure that the redundancies are dealt with fairly. I know many of those affected (both ex bmir and not) and have no desire to see anyone have to face redundancy. Lets hope things turn around sooner rather than later. All the best to anyone affected by the present climate.
Cripple
PS BASH.D.BISHOP – You mentioned that the cadets that do get taken on in future will be going to bmir on the 145. I feel very sorry for them if they end up flying with a narrow minded individual such as yourself. Obviously, you are such an ace that you have been on jets since day one and were born with vast amounts of airmanship and experience. Everyone has to start somewhere and describing cadets as “Seneca driving wieners” (spelt correctly, of course!) is pathetic. I have never found there to be a rift between bmi and bmir crews, but you seem hell bent on creating one.
PPS Will bmir 145s really be operating MAN-LHR route? Maybe a separate thread is required to discuss that one re SCOPE etc.
BUDVAR is trying to point out that if LIFO is being implemented, it should be done as fairly as possible. He has clearly stated that he is not trying to start a ‘them vs us’ argument or suggest that some individuals should be made redundant over others. The situation as to whether or not bmi and bmir are the same company is the point in question. Moleslayer has mentioned that the precedent was set when LCA was integrated into BMA, which is not what has happened with bmi and bmir/BMC.
EFF-OH says that bmir pilots had to apply for a job, then sit an interview and pass a sim check in order to “change fleets”. This sounds rather like the process all other applicants to bmi had to go through to get the job. Hardly a simple fleet change. Should the bmir pilots then be treated like all the other people who went through the same process, regardless of background?
If bmi and bmir are the same company, then why haven’t the two seniority lists been merged, as would be the case if there had been a takeover. Surely according to EFF-OH and BASH.D.BISHOP, the bmir SAAB/EMB pilots should only be made redundant after those with less service in mainline have gone. Not very fair in my opinion. Also, why do the two companies have separate HQ’s if they are indeed one business. There are many other points that I am sure could be found if necessary, and I don’t think that a BRAL pilot joining BA would be able claim his/her BRAL start date in similar circumstances.
In general, any redundancies are VERY unfortunate and distressing for those affected (I am not too far off the bottom myself) but BUDVAR has a point that must be addressed to ensure that the redundancies are dealt with fairly. I know many of those affected (both ex bmir and not) and have no desire to see anyone have to face redundancy. Lets hope things turn around sooner rather than later. All the best to anyone affected by the present climate.
Cripple
PS BASH.D.BISHOP – You mentioned that the cadets that do get taken on in future will be going to bmir on the 145. I feel very sorry for them if they end up flying with a narrow minded individual such as yourself. Obviously, you are such an ace that you have been on jets since day one and were born with vast amounts of airmanship and experience. Everyone has to start somewhere and describing cadets as “Seneca driving wieners” (spelt correctly, of course!) is pathetic. I have never found there to be a rift between bmi and bmir crews, but you seem hell bent on creating one.
PPS Will bmir 145s really be operating MAN-LHR route? Maybe a separate thread is required to discuss that one re SCOPE etc.
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So much for offline editing. A few of you beat me to it. 
2S3 has a point. Whilst not starting a bmi vs bmir argument, this needs to be sorted ASAP as it hasn't been mentioned until 3 weeks ago and we are talking about peoples lives, however they are affected. LIFO is the only fair system but it has to be applied on a level playing field.
Methinks we're all too close for comfort
2S3 has a point. Whilst not starting a bmi vs bmir argument, this needs to be sorted ASAP as it hasn't been mentioned until 3 weeks ago and we are talking about peoples lives, however they are affected. LIFO is the only fair system but it has to be applied on a level playing field.
Methinks we're all too close for comfort
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Ladies and Gents ( and Bash the Bishop, obviously been bashing that bishop a bit too much lately its clouded your thinking judging by your comments in reference to cadets.) I will reitterate that this not a question of BMI/BMIR, it is a question of pilots which are going to made redundant due to a method which is against our AFS.
This is also not a argument against those pilots concerned or a way of instilling hatred between the groups of pilots from the two companies.
That is what we have at the end of the day two separate companies with a group of pilots which have left on to join the other!
If the boot was on the other foot
i.e> I left bmi and joined bmir (of my own free will!!) and then 2 months later 50 redundancies were announced. However because I'd done 4 years in mailine I've leapt 100 in the seniorty and escaped the chop with 10 others from mainline forcing bmir guys out who've done 3 years with bmir. Would you be happy I THINK NOT!!! You take chances when ever you move from one company to another!!
THAT IS THE ISSUE!!!
This is also not a argument against those pilots concerned or a way of instilling hatred between the groups of pilots from the two companies.
That is what we have at the end of the day two separate companies with a group of pilots which have left on to join the other!
If the boot was on the other foot
i.e> I left bmi and joined bmir (of my own free will!!) and then 2 months later 50 redundancies were announced. However because I'd done 4 years in mailine I've leapt 100 in the seniorty and escaped the chop with 10 others from mainline forcing bmir guys out who've done 3 years with bmir. Would you be happy I THINK NOT!!! You take chances when ever you move from one company to another!!
THAT IS THE ISSUE!!!
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Cripple
To answer your question:
"PPS Will bmir 145s really be operating MAN-LHR route? Maybe a separate thread is required to discuss that one re SCOPE etc."
No - it will be changed (along with some other changes) before the final issue. The one you find in your pigeon hole is not the final one!
To answer your question:
"PPS Will bmir 145s really be operating MAN-LHR route? Maybe a separate thread is required to discuss that one re SCOPE etc."
No - it will be changed (along with some other changes) before the final issue. The one you find in your pigeon hole is not the final one!
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Fokker......No I didnt go for the interview as I dont work for BMI! The way that some of my friends were treated at interview was appaling! (Interview for the transfer that is!) However I think the person resonsible for that has been "relieved of his position."
Thanks all for your comments, all taken on board. However I do think that there is no easy way to sort this out. Lets face it this nonsense is not going to help!
Eff Oh
Thanks all for your comments, all taken on board. However I do think that there is no easy way to sort this out. Lets face it this nonsense is not going to help!
Eff Oh
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May I give you the definitive word on the matter; the BMIR pilots who applied for, interviewed and simmed for, posts with bmi mainline were, on joining bmi mainline issued with a letter of appointment.
Amongst other items that letter of appointment may say something along the lines of " your previous employment with BMIR shall count as continuous employment and all other terms are in accordance with the AFS".
What that means is simple; the bmi AFS probably insists that all pilots join the seniority list at the bottom, regardless of whether they enter as a DE Captain, DFO, or F/O. That gives them a seniority date for promotion etc as a pilot. As an employee,however, certain broader terms apply; one of those is that they have given X yrs continuous service to the entire group of companies and thus, when redundancy is considered, this must also be taken into account. Who pays them or has paid is irrelevant so long as the company they worked for was owned and controlled by the same people who own and control the company they now work for.
Hence, those who had X yrs with BMIR and transferred have employee rights in law which over ride the AFS seniority list.
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: PaulDeGearup ]
Amongst other items that letter of appointment may say something along the lines of " your previous employment with BMIR shall count as continuous employment and all other terms are in accordance with the AFS".
What that means is simple; the bmi AFS probably insists that all pilots join the seniority list at the bottom, regardless of whether they enter as a DE Captain, DFO, or F/O. That gives them a seniority date for promotion etc as a pilot. As an employee,however, certain broader terms apply; one of those is that they have given X yrs continuous service to the entire group of companies and thus, when redundancy is considered, this must also be taken into account. Who pays them or has paid is irrelevant so long as the company they worked for was owned and controlled by the same people who own and control the company they now work for.
Hence, those who had X yrs with BMIR and transferred have employee rights in law which over ride the AFS seniority list.
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: PaulDeGearup ]
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I'm rather new to this forum business and I'm only browsing over this because as I'm not far from the bottom of the list I am trying to find a job...
3 days ago I received notice that due to some rag head I will be evicted from my dream job in 3 months time.
As an ex-cadet I find it quite unpleasant to be described as an ex Callow, seneca Driving Wiener! Its difficult enough hunting for a job with 500 jet hrs, let alone none. It was hard enough trying to pass those exams knowing you had a job waiting, imagine what it is like being in their shoes now. Shelfstacking is probably about as good as their prospects get.
I would be interested to discover Bash's background, do I detect some jeolousy about previous Cadets going main line? I hope one day that one of those aforementioned puddle jumper drivers will be your skipper at bmi, and makes you eat those words..
Perhaps you were not good enough to be a cadet, mmm interesting!!!
3 days ago I received notice that due to some rag head I will be evicted from my dream job in 3 months time.
As an ex-cadet I find it quite unpleasant to be described as an ex Callow, seneca Driving Wiener! Its difficult enough hunting for a job with 500 jet hrs, let alone none. It was hard enough trying to pass those exams knowing you had a job waiting, imagine what it is like being in their shoes now. Shelfstacking is probably about as good as their prospects get.
I would be interested to discover Bash's background, do I detect some jeolousy about previous Cadets going main line? I hope one day that one of those aforementioned puddle jumper drivers will be your skipper at bmi, and makes you eat those words..
Perhaps you were not good enough to be a cadet, mmm interesting!!!
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Bumps,
'Rag head'?
All I can say is tough sh*t about your dreamjob. Your not the only one effected.
WA**ER!
Best of luck to those effected at bmi.
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: JT8 ]
'Rag head'?
All I can say is tough sh*t about your dreamjob. Your not the only one effected.
WA**ER!
Best of luck to those effected at bmi.
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: JT8 ]
Just a numbered other
Budvar,
You speak utter sense. Employment law requires that the bmi group retain the magnificent 7 who previously worked for bmi regional.
It does not say, however, that they must be retained as bmi mainline pilots. The fairest thing would be, IMHO, to return them to bmir, thus displacing 7 from the bottom of THAT seniority list.
Again, nothing personal, just a quest for fairness in troubled times.
I would ask all in this debate to be objective, and refrain from inflamatory, childish (and racist) remarks.
You speak utter sense. Employment law requires that the bmi group retain the magnificent 7 who previously worked for bmi regional.
It does not say, however, that they must be retained as bmi mainline pilots. The fairest thing would be, IMHO, to return them to bmir, thus displacing 7 from the bottom of THAT seniority list.
Again, nothing personal, just a quest for fairness in troubled times.
I would ask all in this debate to be objective, and refrain from inflamatory, childish (and racist) remarks.
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Unless you are an expert in Employment law and TUPE (Transfer, Undertakings and Protection of Empoyment) regs, it is difficult to say who is right and who is wrong. In this case there is probably a "Moral" right and a "Legal" right. I would imagine that bmi have taken legal advice and used that advice in decideding the selection criteria.
While waiting in the lounge at LHR last night for the 18:40 to EDI (which incidently was full and then switched from A320 to A321)I read in the Evening Standard that bmi and BALPA had agree a "job share" scheme to reduce redundancies. Any more word on this?
While waiting in the lounge at LHR last night for the 18:40 to EDI (which incidently was full and then switched from A320 to A321)I read in the Evening Standard that bmi and BALPA had agree a "job share" scheme to reduce redundancies. Any more word on this?
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Re....."job-share" quote in Evening Standard.This was first reported in yesterdays Telegraph.
I imagine a journo'has got hold of(or been leaked)the BALPA company re-organisation document.
I doubt very much that the company intend to'impose'these measures.
But you never know 
I imagine a journo'has got hold of(or been leaked)the BALPA company re-organisation document.
I doubt very much that the company intend to'impose'these measures.
But you never know
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Moleslayer
Article from Evening Standard
My reading of the article is that bmi are looking for volunteers and not to impose this.
I suppose for some who may be at the end of their careers going part-time may be of interest, assuming pension rights and other benefits remained intact.
[ Edited to include article]
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: Gaza ]
Article from Evening Standard
Pilots go part-time in bid to save jobs
PILOTS at Britain's second largest airline, BMI, are being asked to halve their hours and pay in a bid to save jobs in the wake of the crisis hitting the airline industry. The work-share arrangement was secured by the pilots' union, the British Air Line Pilots Association said.
The airline industry is reeling from the global economic slowdown exacerbated by the 11 September hijacked plane attacks on the US. Passenger traffic has slumped, forcing airlines to slash thousands of jobs, ground aircraft, cut routes and seek delays in new aircraft orders in an attempt to remain in the skies.
Christopher Darke, the general secretary of Balpa, said BMI agreed that the job-sharing scheme would limit pilot cutbacks. BMI had announced it would slash 109 pilots, one fifth of its pilot workforce, part of a move to cut 600 jobs from its 5,500-strong workforce.
'Under the part-time working scheme, for every two pilots that opt for reduced hours, one more job is saved,' said Darke. 'When good times return to the industry, it will also be easier for BMI to expand by asking pilots to switch back from part-time to full-time working.'
© Associated Newspapers Ltd., 24 October 2001
PILOTS at Britain's second largest airline, BMI, are being asked to halve their hours and pay in a bid to save jobs in the wake of the crisis hitting the airline industry. The work-share arrangement was secured by the pilots' union, the British Air Line Pilots Association said.
The airline industry is reeling from the global economic slowdown exacerbated by the 11 September hijacked plane attacks on the US. Passenger traffic has slumped, forcing airlines to slash thousands of jobs, ground aircraft, cut routes and seek delays in new aircraft orders in an attempt to remain in the skies.
Christopher Darke, the general secretary of Balpa, said BMI agreed that the job-sharing scheme would limit pilot cutbacks. BMI had announced it would slash 109 pilots, one fifth of its pilot workforce, part of a move to cut 600 jobs from its 5,500-strong workforce.
'Under the part-time working scheme, for every two pilots that opt for reduced hours, one more job is saved,' said Darke. 'When good times return to the industry, it will also be easier for BMI to expand by asking pilots to switch back from part-time to full-time working.'
© Associated Newspapers Ltd., 24 October 2001
I suppose for some who may be at the end of their careers going part-time may be of interest, assuming pension rights and other benefits remained intact.
[ Edited to include article]
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: Gaza ]
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The article also appeared in yesterdays FT. http://tm0.com/sbct.cgi?s=96183290&i=410244&d=1935920
The article needs to be read carefully otherwise the fare paying public might be lead to believe that bmi Pilots are earning £180,000 pa!
The article needs to be read carefully otherwise the fare paying public might be lead to believe that bmi Pilots are earning £180,000 pa!
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Why not start by making redundant those who had a retirement date on their 55th birthday but elected to stay to 60. Surely they can be eased out first before the newbies at the bottom ?
But always look on the bright side; if any company can totally f**k anything up, bmi will f**k it up and leave the door wide open for the troops to take legal action for breach of contract,unfair dismissal etc.
And bear in mind, they never win in court
But always look on the bright side; if any company can totally f**k anything up, bmi will f**k it up and leave the door wide open for the troops to take legal action for breach of contract,unfair dismissal etc.
And bear in mind, they never win in court
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Interesting idea Arkroyal.
Unfortunately we don't want them back. They have moved onto bigger and better things 
and have about as much relevance back in bmir as you do in the navy! :o :o
Why should they come back to us and displace 8 hard working people from our list when they are bmi mainline contracted!?
Unfortunately we don't want them back.
They have moved onto bigger and better things and have about as much relevance back in bmir as you do in the navy! :o :o Why should they come back to us and displace 8 hard working people from our list when they are bmi mainline contracted!?