Has Ryanair been hacked?
The Guvnor
I don't agree that this is a precursor to pilot employment becoming a true profession - it already is! I worked for many years as an aerospace technical professional and not once did I ever hear of job applicants have to pay fee towards a prospective employer. These professional companies are more interested in getting the right calibre of individual than making a fast buck at the expense of those unfortunate enough to need a job. I doubt very much that BA would consider such a system for its Direct Entry programme althogh for the cadets perhaps?
I know that Ryanair are perfectly within their rights to use whatever sytem of recruitment they wish, however, in the eyes of the pilot community I think this will just take them even further down in peoples' estimation.
BBK
I don't agree that this is a precursor to pilot employment becoming a true profession - it already is! I worked for many years as an aerospace technical professional and not once did I ever hear of job applicants have to pay fee towards a prospective employer. These professional companies are more interested in getting the right calibre of individual than making a fast buck at the expense of those unfortunate enough to need a job. I doubt very much that BA would consider such a system for its Direct Entry programme althogh for the cadets perhaps?
I know that Ryanair are perfectly within their rights to use whatever sytem of recruitment they wish, however, in the eyes of the pilot community I think this will just take them even further down in peoples' estimation.
BBK
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hamrah - how much is the cost of a JAA B737 type rating? Is £15k about right - or is that way over the top? I hear from a friend that works for FR that the way they do it is set up a bank loan which is covered by the company as long as you're with them (seems to be a bit of a tax dodge from the way it was being described) - but if you leave then obviously the bank manager comes looking for you!
As I said previously, a lot of airlines in Europe are watching this with great interest. You'll know better than most, H, the high costs of recruitment and selection - and the number of CVs you have to plough through that are from 'chancers' that are patently unqualified for the job. This is simply a way of companies covering those costs and putting the onus on the individual to take a 'sniper' rather than 'shotgun' approach to seeking employment.
It couldn't be clearer:
When it comes to paying people with FATPLs lower pay, this again is another practice that they seem to have picked up from Southwest. If you join WN, you have to have undergone a command course for the 737 - even if you're coming in as an FO. It gives them the operational flexibility which simply isn't there for someone that's not qualified - as in the case of an FATPL holder. Insurers don't like low timed pilots either, and employing them means potentially sharply increased insurance rates as well as the headache of always having to roster the most experienced pilots with them. In any case, the FATPL holder is getting a pretty good deal; after all, s/he's in the right hand seat of a B737 rather than instructing in C150s or doing air taxi work until they hit the magic 1,000 hrs with lots on multi-turbine!
As I said previously, a lot of airlines in Europe are watching this with great interest. You'll know better than most, H, the high costs of recruitment and selection - and the number of CVs you have to plough through that are from 'chancers' that are patently unqualified for the job. This is simply a way of companies covering those costs and putting the onus on the individual to take a 'sniper' rather than 'shotgun' approach to seeking employment.
It couldn't be clearer:
If you do not meet these criteria, then please do not apply, you will only be wasting your time and money.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: At the foot of the Lammermuirs
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the same way that in the IT market the onus is on the individual to ensure that s/he is trained (at their own expense) on whatever the most sought after process is - SAP, RSA or whatever - then so it will be the responsibility of the pilot to obtain new ratings.
The cost of achieving certification in SAP (or similar) is probably around 10% of the cost of obtaining an ATPL with Type rating. There is a good chance the IT starting salary will be more in to the bargain.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guvnor
I know you have your personal agenda on this particular theme but you surprise me with your naivety (again) on two points. As a businesman you are obviously aware that market forces; supply and demand; call it what you will dictate how successful such antics will be. Sadly at this time FR are taking full advantage of the current situation and unfortunately will have some success BUT only as long as the market remains depressed. It will recover and the "good" times will return. I have been in this industry 30 years and if I've learned anything it is the inevitablity of recurring cycles of ups and downs. The reasons may differ but the cycles will continue. Don't believe me? Well that takes me neatly to my second point of disappointment in you: short memory span. Just remind me and others how much Easyjet were charging for recruitment admin not so long ago......oh no they weren't charging, they were PAYING £30,000 golden hellos to some people. Market forces.
I know you have your personal agenda on this particular theme but you surprise me with your naivety (again) on two points. As a businesman you are obviously aware that market forces; supply and demand; call it what you will dictate how successful such antics will be. Sadly at this time FR are taking full advantage of the current situation and unfortunately will have some success BUT only as long as the market remains depressed. It will recover and the "good" times will return. I have been in this industry 30 years and if I've learned anything it is the inevitablity of recurring cycles of ups and downs. The reasons may differ but the cycles will continue. Don't believe me? Well that takes me neatly to my second point of disappointment in you: short memory span. Just remind me and others how much Easyjet were charging for recruitment admin not so long ago......oh no they weren't charging, they were PAYING £30,000 golden hellos to some people. Market forces.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guv, the higher insurance rates and the rules about less-experienced pilots flying together only apply to the first 50 hours after final line check in any operation I've worked for. It also applies to any pilot joining, not low-houred as such.
As for the "sniper" versus the "shotgun" approach, it is simply not practicable for people to get themselves type rated for any company wo whom they wish to apply. If it's going to cost £15k to get any type rating - A320/B757/MD80/whatever, then not many people are going to bother to become pilots. There will then be a massive shortage and airlines will be offering other incentives, such as dropping their requirements. We will then be straight back to the "boom and bust" which does not assist either pilots or airlines. What next? Do we demand that all pilots have 1500 hours before they fly for anyone? Do they pay for that experience in a 737? There's a novel idea. Let's make the pilots pay to fly the aircraft, and let the passengers fly for only £1...
In this particular case, it is irrelevant what SouthWest do. This is not the practice in this country, or anywhere outside the USA that I am aware of. You want to employ people? To get the right ones is going to cost you money. Employers will have to get used to it, or, in your words, "grow up". It's not exactly difficult to skim through CVs quickly, and the ones that don't fit the bill hit the circular filing cabinet.
The arrogance and disdain this shows for potential staff is brathtaking. It does nothing for employer/employee relations. It merely advertises the fact that they care nothing for anyone. At the moment, with many pilots out of work, they can get away with it. When the shortage of flying jobs comes to an end, people will remember. And people will exact their toll for past treatment. Is this a good state of affairs for the industry? Very far from it. I don't know how you feel, but I believe in treating people as human beings, and having some respect and human empathy for them. It appears that RyanAir don't.
I suspect that Stelios is probably rubbing his hands with glee. On present going, nobody will apply to RyanAir, with or without a type rating if there's an alternative. There are plenty of 737 operators out there, and just as (un)likely to be recruiting as FR. easyJet will get all the applications, and RyanAir none. I forecast this will be a short-term (failed) experiment.
As for the "sniper" versus the "shotgun" approach, it is simply not practicable for people to get themselves type rated for any company wo whom they wish to apply. If it's going to cost £15k to get any type rating - A320/B757/MD80/whatever, then not many people are going to bother to become pilots. There will then be a massive shortage and airlines will be offering other incentives, such as dropping their requirements. We will then be straight back to the "boom and bust" which does not assist either pilots or airlines. What next? Do we demand that all pilots have 1500 hours before they fly for anyone? Do they pay for that experience in a 737? There's a novel idea. Let's make the pilots pay to fly the aircraft, and let the passengers fly for only £1...
In this particular case, it is irrelevant what SouthWest do. This is not the practice in this country, or anywhere outside the USA that I am aware of. You want to employ people? To get the right ones is going to cost you money. Employers will have to get used to it, or, in your words, "grow up". It's not exactly difficult to skim through CVs quickly, and the ones that don't fit the bill hit the circular filing cabinet.
The arrogance and disdain this shows for potential staff is brathtaking. It does nothing for employer/employee relations. It merely advertises the fact that they care nothing for anyone. At the moment, with many pilots out of work, they can get away with it. When the shortage of flying jobs comes to an end, people will remember. And people will exact their toll for past treatment. Is this a good state of affairs for the industry? Very far from it. I don't know how you feel, but I believe in treating people as human beings, and having some respect and human empathy for them. It appears that RyanAir don't.
I suspect that Stelios is probably rubbing his hands with glee. On present going, nobody will apply to RyanAir, with or without a type rating if there's an alternative. There are plenty of 737 operators out there, and just as (un)likely to be recruiting as FR. easyJet will get all the applications, and RyanAir none. I forecast this will be a short-term (failed) experiment.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Done this one before, but I'll do it again.
New guys sarting salary: £6,500. per YEAR
Add sector cheque, nicely reduced by 50%, gives a return of @ £1,500 total monthly pay.
And that will be after a good month, flying max hrs on long trips. Go sick (if you dare)or miss a few days/weeks due excess hrs, then the return will drop by a few hundred. Maybe just about cover the £15 grand outlay.
Providing of course that you are indeed earning sterling, cos if you go across to Belgium or Ireland then it will be significantly less.
Rostering headache? Belgium has brand new Captains with brand brand new FOs.
On the flip side though, not many outfits are taking low hour guys, so those who have the extra ££££ on top of the £50 grand or so they have already spent can get a go. Hope they don't get chopped. Sincerely.
I'm not anti Ryanair, it's a fun place to work and the rewards are good, but not so good for the new guys, especially once the novelty of flying a jet for fun has worn off.
New guys sarting salary: £6,500. per YEAR
Add sector cheque, nicely reduced by 50%, gives a return of @ £1,500 total monthly pay.
And that will be after a good month, flying max hrs on long trips. Go sick (if you dare)or miss a few days/weeks due excess hrs, then the return will drop by a few hundred. Maybe just about cover the £15 grand outlay.
Providing of course that you are indeed earning sterling, cos if you go across to Belgium or Ireland then it will be significantly less.
Rostering headache? Belgium has brand new Captains with brand brand new FOs.
On the flip side though, not many outfits are taking low hour guys, so those who have the extra ££££ on top of the £50 grand or so they have already spent can get a go. Hope they don't get chopped. Sincerely.
I'm not anti Ryanair, it's a fun place to work and the rewards are good, but not so good for the new guys, especially once the novelty of flying a jet for fun has worn off.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A type rating B737 can easily be done for well under £15,000 on condition you do the training as a crew iso on an individual basis!
At most airlines they team new F/O-trainees up with their Captain-trainees, resulting is a much more efficient and quicker training.
As far as I know the Ryanair system, they simply can not do this, since only their F/O's need the type rating course (the captains joining Ryanair all bically have their typerating from a previous company).
This unnatural flying environment results in an unnecessary slower, longer and thus much more expensive training for the F/O trainees.
How much longer depends of course on the individual capacities of the trainee, but as a guideline I can tell you this:
Occasionally it happens that airlines like LH, AF, SN, etc. put 2 F/O's together for their initial training, but then it is standard practice to include at least 3 additional sim sessions. If you know a normal training can be completed in around 10 sessions, then these 3 extra represent 30% extra time,thus also cost!
If Ryanair charges you 15,000£ it's a real rip off; it can be done for as low 10,000£!
At most airlines they team new F/O-trainees up with their Captain-trainees, resulting is a much more efficient and quicker training.
As far as I know the Ryanair system, they simply can not do this, since only their F/O's need the type rating course (the captains joining Ryanair all bically have their typerating from a previous company).
This unnatural flying environment results in an unnecessary slower, longer and thus much more expensive training for the F/O trainees.
How much longer depends of course on the individual capacities of the trainee, but as a guideline I can tell you this:
Occasionally it happens that airlines like LH, AF, SN, etc. put 2 F/O's together for their initial training, but then it is standard practice to include at least 3 additional sim sessions. If you know a normal training can be completed in around 10 sessions, then these 3 extra represent 30% extra time,thus also cost!
If Ryanair charges you 15,000£ it's a real rip off; it can be done for as low 10,000£!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think this is a question of supply and demand. I think it is a question of ryanair profiteering from the deaths of 6000 plus people and the subsequent downturn in the airline industry. I thought it was bad when some companies used it as an excuse for a staff clear out, but this is beyond the pale. Particularly for a company which claims to be unaffected by the current crisis.
Guest
Posts: n/a
No matter what you put in your recruitment advertisement - 4 out of 5 replies do not have the qualifications listed. There were some 24,000 responses to BA campaign of a few years ago - and they had to employ people (I was one of them) to sort out the 20,000 wannabees who were just "having a go".
I can understand FR's £50 fee.
I can understand FR's £50 fee.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Location Location
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hear from a friend that works for FR that the way they do it is set up a bank loan
[ 22 October 2001: Message edited by: dv8 ]
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wanted: Kebabs, bring your own stick
And this is the company whose pilots rejected BALPA. It would appear that they are not only applying to be "Kebabed" but paying for the stick as well.
I would have thought that the recent PPrune history of MOL would make this outfit one to avoid, both as a pilot and as a passenger.
And this is the company whose pilots rejected BALPA. It would appear that they are not only applying to be "Kebabed" but paying for the stick as well.
I would have thought that the recent PPrune history of MOL would make this outfit one to avoid, both as a pilot and as a passenger.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: London
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hard to believe!
I can't think of any other profession like this where you pay for all training, qualifications etc.. and then you pay (Via an insecure server)for the right to apply to an outfit like Ryanair.
No wonder it only costs a pound.
Incidentally, as applicants are advised of the lack of security, I reckon no credit card company would help if your card details were stolen and used fraudulently.
I just cannot believe this is true!
I can't think of any other profession like this where you pay for all training, qualifications etc.. and then you pay (Via an insecure server)for the right to apply to an outfit like Ryanair.
No wonder it only costs a pound.
Incidentally, as applicants are advised of the lack of security, I reckon no credit card company would help if your card details were stolen and used fraudulently.
I just cannot believe this is true!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
£50.00 for the privilage of having them store your cv on file. It's just the start.
For those low cost operators, who take every opportunity to remind us of the fantastic USA airline model's to which they aspire,
I wait for the day when we see the following recruitment advertisement:-
737 flight time: only £60.00 per hour.
Wanted; 737 first officers
Offering Airline experience, two crew coordination training and 737 flight time whilst operating as uniformed scheduled airline crew.
Submit your c.v. with enclosed £50.00 payment to .......
And yes, for those with short memories, this has been done on numerous occasions, within the U.S. during the last recession. There are always those willing to pay for the flight time. I'm just suprised that the likes of Ryan and Easy haven't suggested it already!
For those low cost operators, who take every opportunity to remind us of the fantastic USA airline model's to which they aspire,
I wait for the day when we see the following recruitment advertisement:-
737 flight time: only £60.00 per hour.
Wanted; 737 first officers
Offering Airline experience, two crew coordination training and 737 flight time whilst operating as uniformed scheduled airline crew.
Submit your c.v. with enclosed £50.00 payment to .......
And yes, for those with short memories, this has been done on numerous occasions, within the U.S. during the last recession. There are always those willing to pay for the flight time. I'm just suprised that the likes of Ryan and Easy haven't suggested it already!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I wish I knew
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Humm....
15K for a JAA approved 737 rating is cheap! easyJet pay more than that!
GUV.. This business of the bank loan sounds like an old Brymon proposal where the loan was in the individuals' name but the payments were covered by the company whilst you remained there. There was insurance incase the company went tits up to cover the balance. If you left, then the individual carried the can for the balance of the loan. No different than a reducing bond apart from you can't walk away so easily.
Maybe the £50 application fee and £150 sim check should be refunded if you are taken on...
Are they dealing with this in house one asks?
Couldn't the SUN just sponser another G-TITS and pay for the cost.
15K for a JAA approved 737 rating is cheap! easyJet pay more than that!
GUV.. This business of the bank loan sounds like an old Brymon proposal where the loan was in the individuals' name but the payments were covered by the company whilst you remained there. There was insurance incase the company went tits up to cover the balance. If you left, then the individual carried the can for the balance of the loan. No different than a reducing bond apart from you can't walk away so easily.
Maybe the £50 application fee and £150 sim check should be refunded if you are taken on...
Are they dealing with this in house one asks?
Couldn't the SUN just sponser another G-TITS and pay for the cost.