ATR down near Palermo (Merged)
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Received this frfom a matey - Kosher or not?
Now sounding possibly like the Tuninter mechs blew the maint on the a/c's prop-brakes (See story below) - and they engaged inflight and burnt out and seized. Hotel mode was introduced on the ATR planes to avoid needing an APU installation. The SAAB 340 has a similar system, but few airlines ever use it. It's primarily a maintenance issue.
LOT and Eurolot generally uses ATR72 ground power and starts the Hotel mode just before disconnection of ext GPU and normal startup of the engines..
Hotel mode means prop brake "on" and gives DC and Air Conditioning availability. All ground operations are available so you can open cargo door, toilet works, refill fuel will also be possible. At any airport where there's no DC ext power available and higher outside air temps, Hotel mode is used. The passenger door is on the shut-down number 1 (i.e. left-hand) side. The number 2 prop is left spinning because the cabin and cockpit lighting is powered by the AC Wild system and, if the number 2 eng is in hotel mode, it is not providing power to the AC system, just DC power. i.e. with no external GPU pwr, you couldn't see in the cabin and cockpit at night?
At any Airport where the taxi or holding is going to be more than 20 mins, they use Eng #1 running and Eng #2 Hotel mode - so less fuel burned and each year, given the cost of fuel, it makes a big difference.
Plane passengers had been concerned about engine noise
FOREBODING: Before the ill-fated Tunisia-bound flight even got off the ground, people aboard the plane were worried that something was amiss
THE GUARDIAN , ROME
Tuesday, Aug 09, 2005,Page 6
Survivors of a weekend plane crash off the coast of Sicily in which at least 13 people died have said they were so concerned about noise from the engines during the flight that a passenger got up to ask the captain what was going on.
Twenty-three people out of 39 aboard, including the pilot and co-pilot, survived after both engines on the twin-prop plane failed and the aircraft was forced to ditch in the Mediterranean. Three people are still missing, thought to be trapped in the submerged fuselage, and the plane's flight recorder has yet to be recovered.
According to passengers, they were uneasy about the condition of the turbo-prop plane operated by Tuninter, an affiliate of Tunisair, from the minute it rose into the air. One woman said she had a sense of foreboding while the aircraft was still on the ground because the pilot had trouble starting one of the engines. One of the propellers was also stuck and was moving slowly but then got going properly.
"I was worried but I'm a nervous flyer and I never really thought anything would happen," she said. She and her 11-year-old daughter survived the crash but her husband died.
Roberto Fusco, who was on board the plane with his girlfriend, said: "During the flight we heard these strange noises. They were so worrying that one of the passengers, a big man with a flowered shirt, got up and went to the pilots' cabin to ask the captain what was going on. We knew something wasn't right from the beginning."
The 25-year-old passenger told what happened as the plane, which was flying from the Italian town of Bari to the Tunisian resort of Djerba, got into difficulties and began to lose altitude.
"At a certain point the right engine failed and the propeller stopped and they said there was an emergency," he said.
"The plane started to lose power and height. Then the other engine stalled and there was panic. The cabin crew didn't speak Italian very well but they told us to put on our lifejackets. Then there was a terrible impact."
His girlfriend, Ilaria Lo Bosco, 23, said: "Roberto and I had our arms around each other. Other people were shouting and crying. I saw a woman holding her baby tightly, tightly to her chest. Then we were in the water. Roberto saved me. He undid my seatbelt and got us out."
She said she saw the baby, who she had been playing with during the flight, being dragged from his mother's arms by the force of the impact into the sea.
Another survivor Gianluca La Forgia described darkness and a rush of cold water up to his neck as the fuselage split open. He said the experience was "like being in a film."
He and his girlfriend, Annalisa Susca, clung to one of the wings of the wrecked plane as they awaited rescue.
"We stayed on it for more than an hour but it wasn't easy because the waves were washing over us," she said.
LOT and Eurolot generally uses ATR72 ground power and starts the Hotel mode just before disconnection of ext GPU and normal startup of the engines..
Hotel mode means prop brake "on" and gives DC and Air Conditioning availability. All ground operations are available so you can open cargo door, toilet works, refill fuel will also be possible. At any airport where there's no DC ext power available and higher outside air temps, Hotel mode is used. The passenger door is on the shut-down number 1 (i.e. left-hand) side. The number 2 prop is left spinning because the cabin and cockpit lighting is powered by the AC Wild system and, if the number 2 eng is in hotel mode, it is not providing power to the AC system, just DC power. i.e. with no external GPU pwr, you couldn't see in the cabin and cockpit at night?
At any Airport where the taxi or holding is going to be more than 20 mins, they use Eng #1 running and Eng #2 Hotel mode - so less fuel burned and each year, given the cost of fuel, it makes a big difference.
Plane passengers had been concerned about engine noise
FOREBODING: Before the ill-fated Tunisia-bound flight even got off the ground, people aboard the plane were worried that something was amiss
THE GUARDIAN , ROME
Tuesday, Aug 09, 2005,Page 6
Survivors of a weekend plane crash off the coast of Sicily in which at least 13 people died have said they were so concerned about noise from the engines during the flight that a passenger got up to ask the captain what was going on.
Twenty-three people out of 39 aboard, including the pilot and co-pilot, survived after both engines on the twin-prop plane failed and the aircraft was forced to ditch in the Mediterranean. Three people are still missing, thought to be trapped in the submerged fuselage, and the plane's flight recorder has yet to be recovered.
According to passengers, they were uneasy about the condition of the turbo-prop plane operated by Tuninter, an affiliate of Tunisair, from the minute it rose into the air. One woman said she had a sense of foreboding while the aircraft was still on the ground because the pilot had trouble starting one of the engines. One of the propellers was also stuck and was moving slowly but then got going properly.
"I was worried but I'm a nervous flyer and I never really thought anything would happen," she said. She and her 11-year-old daughter survived the crash but her husband died.
Roberto Fusco, who was on board the plane with his girlfriend, said: "During the flight we heard these strange noises. They were so worrying that one of the passengers, a big man with a flowered shirt, got up and went to the pilots' cabin to ask the captain what was going on. We knew something wasn't right from the beginning."
The 25-year-old passenger told what happened as the plane, which was flying from the Italian town of Bari to the Tunisian resort of Djerba, got into difficulties and began to lose altitude.
"At a certain point the right engine failed and the propeller stopped and they said there was an emergency," he said.
"The plane started to lose power and height. Then the other engine stalled and there was panic. The cabin crew didn't speak Italian very well but they told us to put on our lifejackets. Then there was a terrible impact."
His girlfriend, Ilaria Lo Bosco, 23, said: "Roberto and I had our arms around each other. Other people were shouting and crying. I saw a woman holding her baby tightly, tightly to her chest. Then we were in the water. Roberto saved me. He undid my seatbelt and got us out."
She said she saw the baby, who she had been playing with during the flight, being dragged from his mother's arms by the force of the impact into the sea.
Another survivor Gianluca La Forgia described darkness and a rush of cold water up to his neck as the fuselage split open. He said the experience was "like being in a film."
He and his girlfriend, Annalisa Susca, clung to one of the wings of the wrecked plane as they awaited rescue.
"We stayed on it for more than an hour but it wasn't easy because the waves were washing over us," she said.
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Propeller brake (hotel mode) is installed on right-hand engine only... that does not give an answer to why the left engine stopped.
Engagement of hotel mode in-flight is highly improbable, as a certain logic is required (pb selected, weight on wheels, gust lock engaged, c.l in feather, blue pressure available..), and even if it engages inflight, one still has dc power and bleed air available from that right engine, plus a good engine on the left side... that's no reason for ditching.
Don't blame mechs before you get the facts, and always be very careful with pax comments... "strange noises" will always be part of the prop community to an outsider.
Probably hotel mode was used prior to departure, reason being why passengers saw a prop "being stuck.."
As for those P&W engines, they're so reliable... hard to believe that both would seize simultaneously..
Just wait and see, let the professionals do their work..
Engagement of hotel mode in-flight is highly improbable, as a certain logic is required (pb selected, weight on wheels, gust lock engaged, c.l in feather, blue pressure available..), and even if it engages inflight, one still has dc power and bleed air available from that right engine, plus a good engine on the left side... that's no reason for ditching.
Don't blame mechs before you get the facts, and always be very careful with pax comments... "strange noises" will always be part of the prop community to an outsider.
Probably hotel mode was used prior to departure, reason being why passengers saw a prop "being stuck.."
As for those P&W engines, they're so reliable... hard to believe that both would seize simultaneously..
Just wait and see, let the professionals do their work..
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Wonder how we will get the facts with the recorders still not been recovered from 1000m depth. Were the pilots interviewed yet? Will the be a press release somewhen?
Latest news speculation is that the plane was not properly fueled at Bari, if fuelled at all. It had come in from a ferry flight and turned around in 20 minutes or so.
With more than 520 NM distance between Bari and Djerba it is more than unlikely that it carried enough fuel for the return flight when arriving, even if it came from Tunis which is a little closer.
Nothing more than speculations obviously...
Latest news speculation is that the plane was not properly fueled at Bari, if fuelled at all. It had come in from a ferry flight and turned around in 20 minutes or so.
With more than 520 NM distance between Bari and Djerba it is more than unlikely that it carried enough fuel for the return flight when arriving, even if it came from Tunis which is a little closer.
Nothing more than speculations obviously...
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hello every one,
very sad story indeed.
i just heard on italian tv news, investigators concentrate on fuel issues &/or human error, quoting from pictures of the wing section in the water, no traces of kerosene are evident, speculating they were maybe running on empty?
well. ... both july & august 2005 will go into history as very bloody indeed for the tourist industry: sharm & london terror, af a340 overrun in toronto(no fatalities though), atr ditching off pmo.
very sad story indeed.
i just heard on italian tv news, investigators concentrate on fuel issues &/or human error, quoting from pictures of the wing section in the water, no traces of kerosene are evident, speculating they were maybe running on empty?
well. ... both july & august 2005 will go into history as very bloody indeed for the tourist industry: sharm & london terror, af a340 overrun in toronto(no fatalities though), atr ditching off pmo.
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The propeller brake is strong enough just to slow down and stop a feathered prop.
It's not strong enough to slow or stop a functioning engine.
When you start the engines, you could just hold the propellers still with your hand! It's a free turbine, you know...
It's not strong enough to slow or stop a functioning engine.
When you start the engines, you could just hold the propellers still with your hand! It's a free turbine, you know...
Thanks iceman 51 for the links to the photos. Can't help but notice the wing floating on the ocean has lots of buoyancy, so much that with the inboard leading edge only just submerged the wing trailing edge is well clear of the water surface to the extent that the flap pivot fairings are only just touching the water. With the mass of the wing, engines, props, gear and the centre section of the fuselage dragging it down something is providing enough buoyancy to keep it all afloat. Presumably the wing internal cavities are all vented and would flood, leaving to my simple mind only empty or nearly empty fuel tanks (6,400 litres capacity according to specs for ATR72 but don't know the exact model) providing buoyancy to keep it all afloat. Anyone who knows the aeroplane care to comment?
Heard today but have absolutely no verification; the aeroplane loaded 3,000 litres (2,400 kgs) for the flight to Bari. For the return, at Bari was topped with 240 kgs (300 litres), could it have been that the intention was to load 2,400kgs and that for the loss of a zero an incorrect amount was loaded with consequent tragic results? An intriguing thought but coupled with the buoyancy keeping the wreckage afloat....
Well, it is a rumour network!
DoT
Heard today but have absolutely no verification; the aeroplane loaded 3,000 litres (2,400 kgs) for the flight to Bari. For the return, at Bari was topped with 240 kgs (300 litres), could it have been that the intention was to load 2,400kgs and that for the loss of a zero an incorrect amount was loaded with consequent tragic results? An intriguing thought but coupled with the buoyancy keeping the wreckage afloat....
Well, it is a rumour network!
DoT
Junior trash
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ATR only burns about 700kgs per hour, so 2400kg sounds like a round trip fuel plan with some topping off. It also adds 0 fuel burn carrying fuel. We often used to take 4 sectors worth out of cheap stations if we could.
'nough said
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Corriere della Sera reports that airline co. procedure require pilot(s) to test the fuel (after refill) for the presence of water by throwing some chemicals in tablet form into the tanks. If water is present they change the colour of the fuel - PIC says this didn't happen in this case and he wrote accordingly in a log which is the hands of the investigating judge.
Link (in Italian)
Elsewhere in the Corriere it was reported that the water temperature in the area of the crash was 26 degrees celsius which probably helped lessen the casualties. Three pax are still missing though, probably trapped under water.
amofw
Link (in Italian)
Elsewhere in the Corriere it was reported that the water temperature in the area of the crash was 26 degrees celsius which probably helped lessen the casualties. Three pax are still missing though, probably trapped under water.
amofw
Pegase Driver
A rumour tonight that " wrong fuel" could have been used . ( Corsican TV )
A stupid question for a mechanic out there : Speculation : would 300 liters of Avgas added to over a ton of kerosene cause sthat kind of dammage in a turbine ?
A stupid question for a mechanic out there : Speculation : would 300 liters of Avgas added to over a ton of kerosene cause sthat kind of dammage in a turbine ?
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It really makes me feel bad this this crash has so little media coverage offered to it. I guess cause it was 'just' an African ATR and there were 'only' Italians onboard. (wink wink)
Maybe I said too much.
P.s....My old chief told me that you can take a wee wee in a turbine and it will still run, maybe the avgas was added long before the crash?
ok I really said too much
Maybe I said too much.
P.s....My old chief told me that you can take a wee wee in a turbine and it will still run, maybe the avgas was added long before the crash?
ok I really said too much
'nough said
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The wrong fuel theory has apparently been discounted by the investigators since the bowser that served the ATR in Bari also served later aircraft that didn't report/suffer any problems.
Again, that's from the Corriere
Again, that's from the Corriere
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Just to Richen the Mixture
DIRTY fuel or a volcanic cloud might have affected the engines of the plane that crashed off the coast of Sicily at the weekend, Italian media reported yesterday.
Clouds of ash and gas from the active Sicilian volcanoes Etna and Stromboli could have extinguished both engines of the Tuninter plane before it plunged tail-first into the Mediterranean, La Nazione speculated.
Twenty-three people survived the crash, which killed 13.
A pilot flying in the same area at the time of the crash, identified only as BR, told the newspaper that planes had warned of the risk of volcanic clouds between 2100m and 3900m. A plane flying through a volcanic cloud would lose power in both its engines simultaneously, he said. Otherwise, there was more chance of being hit by lightning than to lose both engines.
Clouds of ash and gas from the active Sicilian volcanoes Etna and Stromboli could have extinguished both engines of the Tuninter plane before it plunged tail-first into the Mediterranean, La Nazione speculated.
Twenty-three people survived the crash, which killed 13.
A pilot flying in the same area at the time of the crash, identified only as BR, told the newspaper that planes had warned of the risk of volcanic clouds between 2100m and 3900m. A plane flying through a volcanic cloud would lose power in both its engines simultaneously, he said. Otherwise, there was more chance of being hit by lightning than to lose both engines.
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Belgique, that sounds like total and utter b*ll*cks to me. I flew over the area 30 min before the crash, alebeit a few '000 feet higher and there wasn't a cloud to be seen for miles, let alone a volcanic ash one..
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It really makes me feel bad this this crash has so little media coverage offered to it.
Good grief. I despair at this forum sometimes...one minute you're all complaining that an air crash turns into a media circus, next you're whining that there's nothing in the papers.
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320 driver is spot on. Even if Etna was spitting, it would have taken an easterly, southerly or south-easterly wind to move the ash over that area.
Stromboli rarely spits anything very high.
Check 6
Stromboli rarely spits anything very high.
Check 6
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320 Driver & Check Six
Sounded a little weird to me too - that volcanic ash should go unnoticed in broad daylight, although pyroclastic (rock-spitting) Strombolian volcanoes all over the World are well-known for emitting, not ash, but plumes of rising gas. Whether that might affect engines and not pax if flown through momentarily, who knows?
Looks like it's back to running outa gas or, more likely, because of the concern shown by pax about the engine noises even before take-off, possible mismanaged maintenance on both engines (the classic ETOPS nightmare scenario).
Doubt that any Whyalla Airlines type double engine failure scenario could happen on a turbo-prop.... i.e. the added stress on #2 after #1's failure led rapidly to the total failure of an engine that was already sick due to long-term operating practises (to do with leaning out).
Looks like it's back to running outa gas or, more likely, because of the concern shown by pax about the engine noises even before take-off, possible mismanaged maintenance on both engines (the classic ETOPS nightmare scenario).
Doubt that any Whyalla Airlines type double engine failure scenario could happen on a turbo-prop.... i.e. the added stress on #2 after #1's failure led rapidly to the total failure of an engine that was already sick due to long-term operating practises (to do with leaning out).