ATR down near Palermo (Merged)
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good to hear that no body is "pinpointing" at this stage, few areas need to be highlighted:
let us analyse what might happened with the available datas:
over heading Palermo area, the flight should be above FL150 if not about cruising altitude (especially with the relatively light load 35 pax out of possibly 70 seats config).
crew reported tech.problem (assumimg engine failure), and then identifying the ALTN airfield, now coming to the SOP to shut down the sick engine, the probabilty to go for the healthy one is so slim , for two reasons:
1- flight is not on T/O phase that the crew might panic to commit that deadly mistake .
2- two heads following the SOP and ending killing the good engine is difficult to belieave.
we are left with the fuel contamination scenario !!! will wait for the investigation.
Now coming to ditching an ATR , and evacuate all pax before the fuselage submerge , is a very critical exercise, and i belieave with the number of survivors, crew did fairly good job.
our condolences and prayers to the passedaway pax , and let us wait for CVR and FDR.
let us analyse what might happened with the available datas:
over heading Palermo area, the flight should be above FL150 if not about cruising altitude (especially with the relatively light load 35 pax out of possibly 70 seats config).
crew reported tech.problem (assumimg engine failure), and then identifying the ALTN airfield, now coming to the SOP to shut down the sick engine, the probabilty to go for the healthy one is so slim , for two reasons:
1- flight is not on T/O phase that the crew might panic to commit that deadly mistake .
2- two heads following the SOP and ending killing the good engine is difficult to belieave.
we are left with the fuel contamination scenario !!! will wait for the investigation.
Now coming to ditching an ATR , and evacuate all pax before the fuselage submerge , is a very critical exercise, and i belieave with the number of survivors, crew did fairly good job.
our condolences and prayers to the passedaway pax , and let us wait for CVR and FDR.
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Could be anything... Thought of fuel starvation? (fuel leak or similar)
"Engine Problems" really could mean anything, and then nothing because it might be something completely different (journalists are sooo reliable... NOT).
My thoughts are with the victims.
P77
"Engine Problems" really could mean anything, and then nothing because it might be something completely different (journalists are sooo reliable... NOT).
My thoughts are with the victims.
P77
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Having to ditch an airliner into the sea has to be the worst of all emergencies in my opinion. Getting even one survivor out in that scenario is a minor miracle, to get 20 is outstanding.
Good work crew.
Good work crew.
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Have to agree with Cosmos - excellent work to ensure any survivors at all, regardless what led to the ditching.
Although it may have been a bad week news wise for the industry, it also demonsrates to the public that accidents can be perfectly survivable, contrary to what most people probably believe.
Although it may have been a bad week news wise for the industry, it also demonsrates to the public that accidents can be perfectly survivable, contrary to what most people probably believe.
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Am I seeing things or is there a face in the window in this photo???
http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1321322.jpg
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...403775,00.html
http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1321322.jpg
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...403775,00.html
Just saw on tv news down here, video taken last night of aircraft wing and centre section being lowered to a wharf after recovery. The rear fuselage was broken off immediately aft of the wing. The forward fuselage section was broken off immediately forward of the wing. The landing gear was still attached to the fuselage centre section.
The stbd engine complete with cowls was still attached to the wing and the propellor blades were not bent however the blades were feathered. Didn't see the port side. The wing appeared remarkably intact, don't recall seeing if the flaps were extended but would anticipate that if they were they would likely be damaged which did not appear to be the case.
Don't know if the fuselage damage occurred on impact or recovery. Did see on tv news last night a picture of the aircraft after ditching riding high on the water, but suspect it could have been an artists rendition.
DoT.
The stbd engine complete with cowls was still attached to the wing and the propellor blades were not bent however the blades were feathered. Didn't see the port side. The wing appeared remarkably intact, don't recall seeing if the flaps were extended but would anticipate that if they were they would likely be damaged which did not appear to be the case.
Don't know if the fuselage damage occurred on impact or recovery. Did see on tv news last night a picture of the aircraft after ditching riding high on the water, but suspect it could have been an artists rendition.
DoT.
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Crew are described in serious but not life threatening condition mainly due head, spine and lung injuries. A female cabin crew is also in serious condition.
The refuelling truck which serviced this aircraft at Bari has been sealed pending the investigation. This does not imply any suspicion in the fuel but is a standard op in these accident investigation cases.
Italian authorities are "excluding" terrorism as a cause and a technical fault is thought to be the culprit.
The refuelling truck which serviced this aircraft at Bari has been sealed pending the investigation. This does not imply any suspicion in the fuel but is a standard op in these accident investigation cases.
Italian authorities are "excluding" terrorism as a cause and a technical fault is thought to be the culprit.
Last edited by 320DRIVER; 7th Aug 2005 at 14:44.
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Just to add something up
This morning at the crew briefing we all (AirOne) got a telex from FOPH, stating refuelling in BRI should NOT be considered as an option, on a temporary basis.
Probably only a precautionary issue, but it made lotta people think, I guess.
Probably only a precautionary issue, but it made lotta people think, I guess.
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What a contrast between the mid-section being relatively in "good" shape with the attached flaps, cowled engines, wing skins, unbent props, and the landing gear still attached when compared to the complete ripping of the nose and tail.
Any suggestions for the significant contrast.
Any suggestions for the significant contrast.
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I think that this just demonstrates that the wing box area is one of the structurally strongest parts of the aircraft. The forward and aft sections would probably have broken away and sunk after being flooded, while the central part of the fuselage would have been kept afloat by the bouyancy provided by the space in the fuel tanks.
Its good news both engine were recovered which should aid the investigation. Don't know if the recorders were found as well and just as a side note, the depth of the sea in that area quickly goes down to about 1000m.
Its good news both engine were recovered which should aid the investigation. Don't know if the recorders were found as well and just as a side note, the depth of the sea in that area quickly goes down to about 1000m.
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Swim to shore or stay with wreckage?
This news article in August 7th's Sunday Times newspaper mentions that whilst some of the survivors stayed on the ditched aircraft's wing, others started swimming towards the shore.
Surely attempting to swim to shore from a daylight ditching is the worst thing you can do. I am fit, healthy and relatively young. It is year's since I attempted to swim a mile in my local indoor pool. That people might be able to get to shore, fully clothed in the sea is a fantasy I would say unless they are less than half a mile from a beach. Consider the old, children, pregnant women etc. I always bear this in mind when flying single-engine light aircraft over water - 2 miles from the shore may as well be 200.
Clearly the lure of a distant shoreline might be irresistable when the thought of drowning before rescue is on one's mind. However, it is very hard to judge distances when bobbing in the water. When the rescue services do eventually get on the scene, they will find the wreckage and a group of survivors much more easily than a few lone swimmers who are somewhere in between the shore and the aircraft.
So my question to the forum is: Should cabin crew brief passengers (in this and all future accidents) that in the event of ditching, the best chance of survival is to stay with the wreckage and not attempt to swim to shore (unless it is advised pre-ditching by the pilots to be VERY close) ? Opinions please.
Surely attempting to swim to shore from a daylight ditching is the worst thing you can do. I am fit, healthy and relatively young. It is year's since I attempted to swim a mile in my local indoor pool. That people might be able to get to shore, fully clothed in the sea is a fantasy I would say unless they are less than half a mile from a beach. Consider the old, children, pregnant women etc. I always bear this in mind when flying single-engine light aircraft over water - 2 miles from the shore may as well be 200.
Clearly the lure of a distant shoreline might be irresistable when the thought of drowning before rescue is on one's mind. However, it is very hard to judge distances when bobbing in the water. When the rescue services do eventually get on the scene, they will find the wreckage and a group of survivors much more easily than a few lone swimmers who are somewhere in between the shore and the aircraft.
So my question to the forum is: Should cabin crew brief passengers (in this and all future accidents) that in the event of ditching, the best chance of survival is to stay with the wreckage and not attempt to swim to shore (unless it is advised pre-ditching by the pilots to be VERY close) ? Opinions please.
So my question to the forum is: Should cabin crew brief passengers (in this and all future accidents) that in the event of ditching, the best chance of survival is to stay with the wreckage and not attempt to swim to shore (unless it is advised pre-ditching by the pilots to be VERY close) ? Opinions please.
The cabin crew is trained and experienced by training to assist in people using emergency exits and inflating life vests.
Neither the cabin or cockpit crew are experienced or trained in how far to swim or whether to float with a current to the nearest land vs staying with a sinking aircraft. Thus, the decsison making is both as a collective survivors group and/or individual and not necessarily the responsibility of crew members that happen to be survivors,
Combine Operations
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No, that's wrong.
You stay together, as a group, all of you, with the aircraft / vessel / car or whatever you happen to be with at the time, always.
Rescuers will be looking for the mode of transport. They know what it is and what it looks like, and it will be many times larger and easier to see than a single person, whether he is in the sea or on land.
If the aircraft or vessel sinks, it changes things, of course, but you must remain together. Twenty people are a hundred times easier to see than one person. In addition, individuals can gain support, both physical and moral, from the others.
Remember - no wandering off. Rule 1 of 1.
You stay together, as a group, all of you, with the aircraft / vessel / car or whatever you happen to be with at the time, always.
Rescuers will be looking for the mode of transport. They know what it is and what it looks like, and it will be many times larger and easier to see than a single person, whether he is in the sea or on land.
If the aircraft or vessel sinks, it changes things, of course, but you must remain together. Twenty people are a hundred times easier to see than one person. In addition, individuals can gain support, both physical and moral, from the others.
Remember - no wandering off. Rule 1 of 1.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Been a while since I flew TP's but in the above photos, it looks to me like both props are feathered. Presumably (hopefully) this is a result of crew action just before ditching....? Any ATR drivers out there care to comment on the ditching process.
Condolences to those affected.
A4
Condolences to those affected.
A4
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Been a while since I flew TP's but in the above photos, it looks to me like both props are feathered. Presumably (hopefully) this is a result of crew action just before ditching....?
Any chance an autofeather would have kicked in if the engines were winding down?
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This just reminds me of a strange story.
It happened to be a flame out after flying for 1 hour on an engine of a similar turboprop. Investigation revelaled likely flame out due to water in the fuel.
Then looking back, before that particular flight, the aircraft had been parked for four days in high temperatures in high humidity.
During the night, temperatures went down quite well, hence causing a lot of condensation in the tanks. Especially in that case, with tanks quite empty.
Image how much water will be found in the tanks after four days!
Just wanted to share this.
The thoughts are with the families.
It happened to be a flame out after flying for 1 hour on an engine of a similar turboprop. Investigation revelaled likely flame out due to water in the fuel.
Then looking back, before that particular flight, the aircraft had been parked for four days in high temperatures in high humidity.
During the night, temperatures went down quite well, hence causing a lot of condensation in the tanks. Especially in that case, with tanks quite empty.
Image how much water will be found in the tanks after four days!
Just wanted to share this.
The thoughts are with the families.
ATR's ditching checklist contains both feathering through condition levers, acting on PCU, and pulling both fire handles, which feather props via separate electric pumps. Autofeather works only during take-off and go around, when TQ is above 53% so if one engine winds down when the other is below that (on approach it's around 25% for ATR42 with PWC-120) you won't get any autofeathering. 42 normally uses 30° flaps for approach and landing but there's 45° available for ditching and emergency landing and it reduces Vapp to 95kt @ MLM. I'm not sure if 72s have that flap setting. Other items in checklist call for closing outflow valves, checking the gear is up and aiming for pitch attitude of +9° at splashdown.
What I was taught in groundschool about ditching is: swim away from aircraft but when you're far enough (60m methinks) form a group, collect all survivors and stay close together. Our instructors never thought that the ditched plane is good floating device.
I really, really hope that CVR&FDR will be recovered. Also hoping that our colleagues make it.
What I was taught in groundschool about ditching is: swim away from aircraft but when you're far enough (60m methinks) form a group, collect all survivors and stay close together. Our instructors never thought that the ditched plane is good floating device.
I really, really hope that CVR&FDR will be recovered. Also hoping that our colleagues make it.