BRS already at capacity
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BRS already at capacity
G'd evening all,
I heard a rumour today that Bristol is already at full capacity despite only having had their new terminal for a year or two. What with GO starting in a weeks time we could be in for some problems.
Any comments?
I heard a rumour today that Bristol is already at full capacity despite only having had their new terminal for a year or two. What with GO starting in a weeks time we could be in for some problems.
Any comments?
Guest
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BRS is about big enough to accomodate a couple of flying clubs and is a classic case of a country airport that is unable to expand to handle larger traffic.
The 'charters' regard it as a 'limiting base' due to it's poor facilities and weather factor and the 'shedules' regard it as some where close enough to LON/MAN to drive to so it only serves some of the longer 'fringe destinations. It has a large catchment area and the holiday firms would have cashed in on this a long time ago if it were not for the potential for disruption at a single aircraft base.
Terminals do not equal capacity.
The 'charters' regard it as a 'limiting base' due to it's poor facilities and weather factor and the 'shedules' regard it as some where close enough to LON/MAN to drive to so it only serves some of the longer 'fringe destinations. It has a large catchment area and the holiday firms would have cashed in on this a long time ago if it were not for the potential for disruption at a single aircraft base.
Terminals do not equal capacity.
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agplug
Airworld used to operate because, they then went on to become part of Flying Colours, (bailing them out of debt) which then went on to become JMC, following the debarcle of the Flying Colours/British Caledonian merger.
Therefore, they still fly regularly into Cardiff (and Bristol) along with Airours, Britannia, Go, KLM and a few others.
Airworld used to operate because, they then went on to become part of Flying Colours, (bailing them out of debt) which then went on to become JMC, following the debarcle of the Flying Colours/British Caledonian merger.
Therefore, they still fly regularly into Cardiff (and Bristol) along with Airours, Britannia, Go, KLM and a few others.
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Thank you SOC.
MAG let me explain some facts.
BRS is not the next LHR we all know that, but still a viable profitable regional airport. In my company we could quite easily fly 3 slots a day Thu - Mon from BRS. But Tue & Wed we would fly maybe 2 probably 1 slot a day. This would leave us having to asorb the cost of positioning in and out of BRS every week. or have an Acft sitting around doing not much at all for a copule of days. So our options are;
1) W in from a base such as MAN or LGW.
(eg: LGW-TFS-BRS-TFS-LGW)
2) Place these flights with ops that have overseas based acft such as SPP & FUA etc
We do in fact use both options. Which suits us very well for now. But, as slots restrictions at the majors become tighter, we will look elsewhere for growth and BRS will be around the top of that list.
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You fly em we'll fill em!
[This message has been edited by Desk Driver (edited 07 June 2001).]
MAG let me explain some facts.
BRS is not the next LHR we all know that, but still a viable profitable regional airport. In my company we could quite easily fly 3 slots a day Thu - Mon from BRS. But Tue & Wed we would fly maybe 2 probably 1 slot a day. This would leave us having to asorb the cost of positioning in and out of BRS every week. or have an Acft sitting around doing not much at all for a copule of days. So our options are;
1) W in from a base such as MAN or LGW.
(eg: LGW-TFS-BRS-TFS-LGW)
2) Place these flights with ops that have overseas based acft such as SPP & FUA etc
We do in fact use both options. Which suits us very well for now. But, as slots restrictions at the majors become tighter, we will look elsewhere for growth and BRS will be around the top of that list.
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You fly em we'll fill em!
[This message has been edited by Desk Driver (edited 07 June 2001).]
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As a "punter" give me my small regional airport every time!
When I go on holiday I refuse point blank to fly from anywhere other than my two local (midlands) airports, despite strenuous efforts by travel agencies to persuade me otherwise. I have found many other "customers" insist on doing the same.
It may "appear" cheaper to fly from LGW/MAN etc. but it's a lot more hassle. If I fly "local" I don't have to fight the jams round the M25 and then have the problem of what to do with the car when I get there. A friendly neighbour/relation can drop me off at the airport or the price of a taxi is not too prohibitive.
Total travel time door-to-door is a lot less and I don't have to mix it with the masses in the rat-race of the South East!
Yes, there may be fewer flights but give me a local airport to travel from every time.
These sorts of factors are often ignored by the "bean counters" - sometimes it's worth paying for a bit of convenience and what's more if you are travelling from LGW etc. at some ungodly hour you might have to stay overnight in a hotel which also adds to the expense.
Long live airports like BRS!
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When I go on holiday I refuse point blank to fly from anywhere other than my two local (midlands) airports, despite strenuous efforts by travel agencies to persuade me otherwise. I have found many other "customers" insist on doing the same.
It may "appear" cheaper to fly from LGW/MAN etc. but it's a lot more hassle. If I fly "local" I don't have to fight the jams round the M25 and then have the problem of what to do with the car when I get there. A friendly neighbour/relation can drop me off at the airport or the price of a taxi is not too prohibitive.
Total travel time door-to-door is a lot less and I don't have to mix it with the masses in the rat-race of the South East!
Yes, there may be fewer flights but give me a local airport to travel from every time.
These sorts of factors are often ignored by the "bean counters" - sometimes it's worth paying for a bit of convenience and what's more if you are travelling from LGW etc. at some ungodly hour you might have to stay overnight in a hotel which also adds to the expense.
Long live airports like BRS!
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Desk Driver
I agree with all you have said. W-Patterns or not the punters (see above) would clearly like to fly from the airport-next-door.
The charters would also love to consolidate all services out of main base therefore saving outstation costs /engineering support / crew positioning / Hotac etc.
Sure the regional airports do a fine job but only so far. When all capacity is taken (as seems to be the approaching case at BRS) there is no more.
Standby for the airport authority to put up their charges!
I agree with all you have said. W-Patterns or not the punters (see above) would clearly like to fly from the airport-next-door.
The charters would also love to consolidate all services out of main base therefore saving outstation costs /engineering support / crew positioning / Hotac etc.
Sure the regional airports do a fine job but only so far. When all capacity is taken (as seems to be the approaching case at BRS) there is no more.
Standby for the airport authority to put up their charges!
Guest
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Charges went up about 2 weeks ago! Light single from £6 to £8..... I think all the others went up by significantly more.
Agree totally about flying locally, saves time and hassle and extortionate parking charges.
If it's not the terminal reaching capacity (it's certainly not, been through it often enough lately), what is it? It can't be the runway (often empty), is it just the 'infrastructure' ie baggage handlers, fuel pumpers etc? Surely easily resolved?
Agree totally about flying locally, saves time and hassle and extortionate parking charges.
If it's not the terminal reaching capacity (it's certainly not, been through it often enough lately), what is it? It can't be the runway (often empty), is it just the 'infrastructure' ie baggage handlers, fuel pumpers etc? Surely easily resolved?
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I can never understand why the regionals don't do more to tempt the charter operators. Our place (LBA) is a prime example. Only 50 bucket & spade flights per week in the summer vs 100 - 130 at places like BRS,CWL,NCL etc and many more at BHX,GLA,MAN etc. Undoubtedly, lots of potential and it should be a piece of p*** to make greater inroads into the market as a result.
Yet this is not the case. One assumes the authority are unwilling to offer sufficiently competitive charges to ensure that the airlines obtain some financial benefit from switching a few A320s and B757s between MAN and LBA. This is remarkable given the airport has plenty of scope to handle additional passengers without significantly increasing its cost base and by offering these deals it is not going to cripple itself financially. If anything, the additional income from car parking, concession income etc would compensate. Yet, the airport appears unwilling to play ball, at least with anyone other than AIH. The Thomson /BAL relationship continues to deteriorate and niether JMC or First Choice have no real presence. It is no wonder that Peel see so much potential in Finningley, yet even this threat appears not enough to stimulate the LBA authority into action.
682
Yet this is not the case. One assumes the authority are unwilling to offer sufficiently competitive charges to ensure that the airlines obtain some financial benefit from switching a few A320s and B757s between MAN and LBA. This is remarkable given the airport has plenty of scope to handle additional passengers without significantly increasing its cost base and by offering these deals it is not going to cripple itself financially. If anything, the additional income from car parking, concession income etc would compensate. Yet, the airport appears unwilling to play ball, at least with anyone other than AIH. The Thomson /BAL relationship continues to deteriorate and niether JMC or First Choice have no real presence. It is no wonder that Peel see so much potential in Finningley, yet even this threat appears not enough to stimulate the LBA authority into action.
682
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What's happening at SOU (ok, on a small scale at the moment) must indicate that
there are some charter punters prepared
to pay a bit extra to fly from a Regional
Airport....especially as LGW is not that
far away. Also that Thompsons (and I believe
others next year) must find it worthwhile.
The BY 757 (PMI) on a Thurs looks very big next to the Embraers, Dash 8's etc!
there are some charter punters prepared
to pay a bit extra to fly from a Regional
Airport....especially as LGW is not that
far away. Also that Thompsons (and I believe
others next year) must find it worthwhile.
The BY 757 (PMI) on a Thurs looks very big next to the Embraers, Dash 8's etc!
Guest
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The biggest delay in BRS seems to be the ramp. The terminal is fine, runway often empty, & then everyone wastes ages with buses all over the ramp. The process of getting people to & from the aircraft just hasn't been thought out.
SOU has the problem of a short(ish) runway & the necessity of having to taxy on the runway. Not much room for expansion either.
Both airports have grown tremendously in the last few years so the demand is clearly there.
SOU has the problem of a short(ish) runway & the necessity of having to taxy on the runway. Not much room for expansion either.
Both airports have grown tremendously in the last few years so the demand is clearly there.
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Captain/Estate Agent Magplug,
Perhaps your outlook would benefit by getting out a little more. If you leave Crawley and the London TMA behind, you will find many, profitable, regional airports where the charters have fully manned (and girled!) bases with full maintenence support.
At BRS, for instance, Air 2000 (A321) and Britannia (B757) have, for many years had full bases. Airtours (nee InterEuropean (A320 & B757)) and JMC (nee Flying colours, nee Airworld (A320)) are also crewed locally, but with engineering support from AMM. Brymon (Dash 8 & EMB145) have a full base, GO are getting bigger by the minute, and Sabena, KLM and others keep the schedules busy. At CWL there is a similar picture
The AMM A321 at BRS, for instance, operates 19 rotations a week, plus a CWL based A320 passes through once a week on a W pattern.
The terminal at BRS currently handles 2.5 million pax per year, and I understand that the airport anticipates expanding the terminal to handle 3.5 million in the next 5 years or so. The ILS should be operational to CAT 2 limits in the next few weeks, and CAT 3 by August.
Sure the runway isn't the longest, but you can get a full A320/321/B757 to the Eastern Med or Canaries, which is all the charters require. The handling is indeed a bit of a shambles, so I will concede that.
So, it would appear that the demand is there ,and the airlines and regional airports are trying to satisfy it.
LGW? No thanks.
Regards,
Norm
Perhaps your outlook would benefit by getting out a little more. If you leave Crawley and the London TMA behind, you will find many, profitable, regional airports where the charters have fully manned (and girled!) bases with full maintenence support.
At BRS, for instance, Air 2000 (A321) and Britannia (B757) have, for many years had full bases. Airtours (nee InterEuropean (A320 & B757)) and JMC (nee Flying colours, nee Airworld (A320)) are also crewed locally, but with engineering support from AMM. Brymon (Dash 8 & EMB145) have a full base, GO are getting bigger by the minute, and Sabena, KLM and others keep the schedules busy. At CWL there is a similar picture
The AMM A321 at BRS, for instance, operates 19 rotations a week, plus a CWL based A320 passes through once a week on a W pattern.
The terminal at BRS currently handles 2.5 million pax per year, and I understand that the airport anticipates expanding the terminal to handle 3.5 million in the next 5 years or so. The ILS should be operational to CAT 2 limits in the next few weeks, and CAT 3 by August.
Sure the runway isn't the longest, but you can get a full A320/321/B757 to the Eastern Med or Canaries, which is all the charters require. The handling is indeed a bit of a shambles, so I will concede that.
So, it would appear that the demand is there ,and the airlines and regional airports are trying to satisfy it.
LGW? No thanks.
Regards,
Norm
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The appeal of Finningley is its better motorway access than LBA and a much better weather record than LBA.
BRS suffers similar problems in terms of access and weather and enjoys a weather record as bad as LBA and I should know cos I look after diverts at both !
The disruption which is caused by bad weather at BRS and LBA presents the industry with a sizeable cost to passengers and flying programmes.
Certainly in the summer months 3 slot flying programmes are viable but is that the case in the winter when you keep having to coach pax CWL-BRS and LBA-MAN on inbound and out bound flights.
If the answer is yes, then e-mail me for contract rates cos we will be very busy !
BRS suffers similar problems in terms of access and weather and enjoys a weather record as bad as LBA and I should know cos I look after diverts at both !
The disruption which is caused by bad weather at BRS and LBA presents the industry with a sizeable cost to passengers and flying programmes.
Certainly in the summer months 3 slot flying programmes are viable but is that the case in the winter when you keep having to coach pax CWL-BRS and LBA-MAN on inbound and out bound flights.
If the answer is yes, then e-mail me for contract rates cos we will be very busy !
Guest
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I think at LBA the perception with the w/x is generally worse than the reality. According to our records, from 350 IT landings that were scheduled between JAN-APR this year, only 6 did not operate from LBA. 3 of these were listed as weather diversions, 3 were listed as operating from other airports due to operational / technical reasons.
Even if the perception is of weather problems in the winter, LBA still has much fewer services than other w/x affected airports such as BRS and LTN. If it doesn't hinder these airports, why should it affect LBA? I don't think the 3 rotations per day argument is valid in the winter, as there is generally not the demand. There are relatively few late night / early hours flights in the winter as generally only two sectors are flown. If anything, LBA fares better relative to other regional airports in the winter than it does in the summer - suggesting that the w/x situation has little to do with the levels of summer IT flights.
682
[This message has been edited by 682ft AMSL (edited 10 June 2001).]
Even if the perception is of weather problems in the winter, LBA still has much fewer services than other w/x affected airports such as BRS and LTN. If it doesn't hinder these airports, why should it affect LBA? I don't think the 3 rotations per day argument is valid in the winter, as there is generally not the demand. There are relatively few late night / early hours flights in the winter as generally only two sectors are flown. If anything, LBA fares better relative to other regional airports in the winter than it does in the summer - suggesting that the w/x situation has little to do with the levels of summer IT flights.
682
[This message has been edited by 682ft AMSL (edited 10 June 2001).]
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Norman R,
<<Perhaps your outlook would benefit by getting out a little more. If you leave Crawley and the London TMA behind, you will find many, profitable, regional airports where the charters have fully manned (and girled!) bases with full maintenence support.
>>
Sorry old chap I missed the bit where I was extolling the virtues of the London TMA. It seems I also missed the bit where a discussion on airline business led to me having to get out more ???
My point is...Scheduled airline will always operate from the regionals because there is demand and the yield is sufficiently high to continue to do so - albeit with smaller aircraft to match capacity.
The charters will go wherever they can turn a buck. Their operating overheads from bases like BRS are considerably higher than making the pax go to MAN/BHX/LGW but they will continue to do so where the yield dictates. The industry is becoming increasingly slot limited at the country's main airports so the reduced yield from regionals is the only visible area of growth for now.
I have no axe to grind with BRS but the concensus appears to be that it is a bit of a mess suffering from poor layout and severe lack of investment. The weather factor is well known as our friend BillTheCoach points out - and there it is from the horses mouth (sorry Bill)!
Do I understand BRS will be CAT3 for A320/757 shortly ? Perhaps you would like to enlarge upon that.....
Mag
<<Perhaps your outlook would benefit by getting out a little more. If you leave Crawley and the London TMA behind, you will find many, profitable, regional airports where the charters have fully manned (and girled!) bases with full maintenence support.
>>
Sorry old chap I missed the bit where I was extolling the virtues of the London TMA. It seems I also missed the bit where a discussion on airline business led to me having to get out more ???
My point is...Scheduled airline will always operate from the regionals because there is demand and the yield is sufficiently high to continue to do so - albeit with smaller aircraft to match capacity.
The charters will go wherever they can turn a buck. Their operating overheads from bases like BRS are considerably higher than making the pax go to MAN/BHX/LGW but they will continue to do so where the yield dictates. The industry is becoming increasingly slot limited at the country's main airports so the reduced yield from regionals is the only visible area of growth for now.
I have no axe to grind with BRS but the concensus appears to be that it is a bit of a mess suffering from poor layout and severe lack of investment. The weather factor is well known as our friend BillTheCoach points out - and there it is from the horses mouth (sorry Bill)!
Do I understand BRS will be CAT3 for A320/757 shortly ? Perhaps you would like to enlarge upon that.....
Mag
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Mag,
If you have no axe to grind with BRS, I take it your previous postings on this thread were written by an imposter. However, I also have no particular need to defend BRS, but do not like to see opinion touted as fact.
For info, the CAT 3 ILS was installed at BRS last year, has undergone well over 4000 hours of uninterupted running, and is, I understand certified to CAT 2 limits. It will not be declared operational until some snaggettes with the ground lighting have been ironed out (a couple of weeks?). Once that has happened, and when it passes the 8000 hours mark (Aug 2001), it will be certified to CAT 3.
Do I take it that your comment about lack of investment does not allow for the new terminal, the new ramps, the new control tower, the covered walkway at the heads of the stands (coming later this year), the re-routing of the A38, etc, etc.
As I and others have stated, BRS, CWL, and others do not pretend to be LGW or MAN, but they are also not backwaters. The big charter operators have been there year round, with locallly based crews and maintenance for many years, and they'll be there for many more.
As 682' has observed already, the weather issue at these fields is more perception than reality, although that is cold comfort to the few who do end up in BHX I know. But, the CAT 3 is just around the corner.
The parking and taxying can be chaotic, and the handling sometimes leaves me speechless, but, hey, you can't have everything, and it beats a half hour queue at Alpha North, or whatever it's called this week.
regards,
Norm
If you have no axe to grind with BRS, I take it your previous postings on this thread were written by an imposter. However, I also have no particular need to defend BRS, but do not like to see opinion touted as fact.
For info, the CAT 3 ILS was installed at BRS last year, has undergone well over 4000 hours of uninterupted running, and is, I understand certified to CAT 2 limits. It will not be declared operational until some snaggettes with the ground lighting have been ironed out (a couple of weeks?). Once that has happened, and when it passes the 8000 hours mark (Aug 2001), it will be certified to CAT 3.
Do I take it that your comment about lack of investment does not allow for the new terminal, the new ramps, the new control tower, the covered walkway at the heads of the stands (coming later this year), the re-routing of the A38, etc, etc.
As I and others have stated, BRS, CWL, and others do not pretend to be LGW or MAN, but they are also not backwaters. The big charter operators have been there year round, with locallly based crews and maintenance for many years, and they'll be there for many more.
As 682' has observed already, the weather issue at these fields is more perception than reality, although that is cold comfort to the few who do end up in BHX I know. But, the CAT 3 is just around the corner.
The parking and taxying can be chaotic, and the handling sometimes leaves me speechless, but, hey, you can't have everything, and it beats a half hour queue at Alpha North, or whatever it's called this week.
regards,
Norm
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Norm,
You clearly have a much softer spot for BRS than I do so we better leave it at that.
You say CAT3 shortly ? Will that accomodate a charter laden A320/757 with an LDA (27) of only 1870m ? Or will that make the charters landing weight limited?
Mag
You clearly have a much softer spot for BRS than I do so we better leave it at that.
You say CAT3 shortly ? Will that accomodate a charter laden A320/757 with an LDA (27) of only 1870m ? Or will that make the charters landing weight limited?
Mag
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As one of the users of the Avon garden-path-and(NEW SHINY)potting-shed there is a lot to be said for BRS. There are also many things that haven't been thought out properly:
pushing back onto a taxi way
Making the gates opposite the charter a/c for the Bryman pax, and the ones further down the line for the charter, so that buses have to cross lines of pax
Fitting CAT 3 to a runway that's about 250yds too short for a laden A321 to land in the wet (chances of needing CAT3 on a dry runway at BRS ????)
Not having dedicated crew transport, therby incurring delays waiting for suits to get on their EMBs etc to free up a bus
Having a tower too short to see the end of the runway
Most of these are being dealt with (hopefully) and there are many more problems in the terminal, but with the London area becoming saturated, and the cost of travelling fro the SW to LGW/LHR increasing, there is a great deal of promise for the future at BRS. It certainly beats living in the SE anyday!!
Now if only Filton had been converted for pax..............
pushing back onto a taxi way
Making the gates opposite the charter a/c for the Bryman pax, and the ones further down the line for the charter, so that buses have to cross lines of pax
Fitting CAT 3 to a runway that's about 250yds too short for a laden A321 to land in the wet (chances of needing CAT3 on a dry runway at BRS ????)
Not having dedicated crew transport, therby incurring delays waiting for suits to get on their EMBs etc to free up a bus
Having a tower too short to see the end of the runway
Most of these are being dealt with (hopefully) and there are many more problems in the terminal, but with the London area becoming saturated, and the cost of travelling fro the SW to LGW/LHR increasing, there is a great deal of promise for the future at BRS. It certainly beats living in the SE anyday!!
Now if only Filton had been converted for pax..............