Mobile Phone ringing on Take Off
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The regulators, thanks for posting that!
Interesting read for a Wagon Dragon who has to make these announcements in a convincing manner 6 times a day without ever being shown any JAA documents by the company.
PS: I phrase the thing a bit "different"
from the official bland comp version, and as a result a few pax always jump up as if stung by a bee and switch off their darlings as soon as I've finished talking. 
Interesting read for a Wagon Dragon who has to make these announcements in a convincing manner 6 times a day without ever being shown any JAA documents by the company.
PS: I phrase the thing a bit "different"
from the official bland comp version, and as a result a few pax always jump up as if stung by a bee and switch off their darlings as soon as I've finished talking.
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martinidoc
Pagers are relatively passive as they don't transmit or register with a network. Or so I heard. Mobiles are a much greater danger. I was involved with experiments in Australia on headsets in telephone call centres to try and protect against squeals which mobiles are suspected of causing. The company spent millions trying to protect its staff against these things and you are still outlawed from having a mobile on in one of their call centres. I would be as concerned about my hearing as the interference to the equipment as in the telephone network there is no real amplification but the headsets used on aircraft do have amplifiers yet squeals believed to be caused by mobiles ruptured the eardrums of a number of staff and left others with balance problems due to damage to the inner ear.
Pagers are relatively passive as they don't transmit or register with a network. Or so I heard. Mobiles are a much greater danger. I was involved with experiments in Australia on headsets in telephone call centres to try and protect against squeals which mobiles are suspected of causing. The company spent millions trying to protect its staff against these things and you are still outlawed from having a mobile on in one of their call centres. I would be as concerned about my hearing as the interference to the equipment as in the telephone network there is no real amplification but the headsets used on aircraft do have amplifiers yet squeals believed to be caused by mobiles ruptured the eardrums of a number of staff and left others with balance problems due to damage to the inner ear.
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How about showing some ****ing curtesy and learn the language in which country you are flying in and brief in their language? Whatever they are speaking there it can't be that difficult to have a note in phonetic text in your lap to give pax a briefing in their own language.
If that doesn't work ask all 5 or 6 of your passengers if they have mobile-phones and put them in the little luggage-compartement you have in the back! I mean how hard can it be?????
If that doesn't work ask all 5 or 6 of your passengers if they have mobile-phones and put them in the little luggage-compartement you have in the back! I mean how hard can it be?????
I'm very amused by the idea of diving the plane if one is detected... wouldnt do it myself, but its funny to read!
Dont know about the rest of you, but under Australian regs we've got a bone fide way of dealing with mobile users on the plane.. Ive threatened it myself to SLF but never been required to carry through.
CAR 224 states that the PIC is responsible for
"the operation and SAFETY of the aircraft during flight time"
I would suggest that, due to radio interference possibilities at the least, mobile phones present a hazard to the safety of the aircraft.
CAR 309 states that
"A person who, on an aircraft in flight, whether within or outside Australian territory, is found committing, or reasonably suspected of having committed, or having attempted to commit, or of being about to commit, an offence against the Act or these Regulations may be arrested without warrant by a member of the crew of the aircraft in the same manner as a person who is found committing a felony may, at common law, be arrested by a constable and shall be dealt with in the same manner as a person so arrested by a constable."
In other words... remind your SLF that it is under your discretion as PIC whether or not to arrest them and have have them dealt with by police on a charge of 'threatening the safety of an aircraft'.
Or if you are in an unpressurised craft like the PA28, chuck the offending phone out the window!
Lasior
Dont know about the rest of you, but under Australian regs we've got a bone fide way of dealing with mobile users on the plane.. Ive threatened it myself to SLF but never been required to carry through.
CAR 224 states that the PIC is responsible for
"the operation and SAFETY of the aircraft during flight time"
I would suggest that, due to radio interference possibilities at the least, mobile phones present a hazard to the safety of the aircraft.
CAR 309 states that
"A person who, on an aircraft in flight, whether within or outside Australian territory, is found committing, or reasonably suspected of having committed, or having attempted to commit, or of being about to commit, an offence against the Act or these Regulations may be arrested without warrant by a member of the crew of the aircraft in the same manner as a person who is found committing a felony may, at common law, be arrested by a constable and shall be dealt with in the same manner as a person so arrested by a constable."
In other words... remind your SLF that it is under your discretion as PIC whether or not to arrest them and have have them dealt with by police on a charge of 'threatening the safety of an aircraft'.
Or if you are in an unpressurised craft like the PA28, chuck the offending phone out the window!
Lasior
Mobile Phone ringing on Take Off
As a SLF (with limited electronics knowledge) I agree that mobiles could cause bad bad problems. For some reasons I thought that the problem was only serious on Airbuses under IFR conditions and there were little problems to send a sms or make a short call on a VFR take off on a Do228 or from a C-130H. And I thank maxmobil for his story. (NIce name by the way)
On the other hand a lot of people are seek and tired because employees at various industries (including airlines) invent rules and regulation just to make their lifes easier NO sir we can't do that because of regulations.
Maybe we should find a way to make the regulations more belivable..
Rwy in sight
On the other hand a lot of people are seek and tired because employees at various industries (including airlines) invent rules and regulation just to make their lifes easier NO sir we can't do that because of regulations.
Maybe we should find a way to make the regulations more belivable..
Rwy in sight
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as an engineer on the b777 and b744 for the world's fav. i can honestly say that just about everyone i know at the hangar during anything from a ramp check to a full d check uses their mobiles (secretly!) all over the aircraft, i know the thing isn't flying, but engines can be running and systems are simulated in air mode frequently and i've never seen any emi problems. not to say they don't happen, but just think more is made of this than is necessary. plenty of people leave their mobiles on silent during flights, enabling them to text & recieve calls quite discreetly - i accidentally left mine on on a longhaul flight and received text all the way.
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Imagine….
You’re about to operate the return leg of a night flight that is right up against the stops on Flight Duty Period limits. You already know that, as a result of various problems earlier in the night, that you're going to go well into ‘discretion’.
You’re currently sitting there, all ready to go, but waiting for an ATC slot - one which will allow you to go in about 10 minutes from now – you must make this slot !
The SCCM walks in to the flight deck and announces “Since we reminded the pax about the use of mobile phones, we’ve just had about eight of them tell us that they have packed their mobile phones in with their luggage and they 'think' that they've left them switched on”.
“Oh buggger !”, says you ( or words to that effect ).
You request the handling agent and ask if they have any idea of where these bags are located ?
They reply, after using a few precious minutes consulting the baggage manifest, that ( inevitably ) they were some of the first to be loaded into the hold - and so as such you'll have to drag hundreds of bags out in order to get to them.
You’re well aware that if you have to drag all the bags out of the hold that 1). you won’t make the ATC slot, and 2). it will take so long to drag them out, and then put them back in again, that the flight will then have to be cancelled - as the crew will be out of hours to operate it - as you’ll have maxed-out on the discretion that you have to extend the crew’s duty.
So what you gonna do ?
You’re about to operate the return leg of a night flight that is right up against the stops on Flight Duty Period limits. You already know that, as a result of various problems earlier in the night, that you're going to go well into ‘discretion’.
You’re currently sitting there, all ready to go, but waiting for an ATC slot - one which will allow you to go in about 10 minutes from now – you must make this slot !
The SCCM walks in to the flight deck and announces “Since we reminded the pax about the use of mobile phones, we’ve just had about eight of them tell us that they have packed their mobile phones in with their luggage and they 'think' that they've left them switched on”.
“Oh buggger !”, says you ( or words to that effect ).
You request the handling agent and ask if they have any idea of where these bags are located ?
They reply, after using a few precious minutes consulting the baggage manifest, that ( inevitably ) they were some of the first to be loaded into the hold - and so as such you'll have to drag hundreds of bags out in order to get to them.
You’re well aware that if you have to drag all the bags out of the hold that 1). you won’t make the ATC slot, and 2). it will take so long to drag them out, and then put them back in again, that the flight will then have to be cancelled - as the crew will be out of hours to operate it - as you’ll have maxed-out on the discretion that you have to extend the crew’s duty.
So what you gonna do ?
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Devil's Advocate, how about adding mobile phones to the list of dangerous items that are only allowed on board if carried on your person? That would make it easier for the pax to check their phones are off...
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Go.
You see, I bet you a month's worth of salary that on every, or 99% of your flights, there's at least one mobile on. Most likely alot more than that. On purpose, by accident, in the hold or in the overhead lockers, there's going to be a few on.
Yes, we should minimise the chances, but really, being told there's a few mobiles on on your airplane should be no news at all.
You see, I bet you a month's worth of salary that on every, or 99% of your flights, there's at least one mobile on. Most likely alot more than that. On purpose, by accident, in the hold or in the overhead lockers, there's going to be a few on.
Yes, we should minimise the chances, but really, being told there's a few mobiles on on your airplane should be no news at all.
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is it really necessary?
it shouldn't have to be a question of if the phone interferes (sp) with the aircraft's systems or not. who is so bloody important that they can't wait until back inside teh terminal before loading them up. I think all aircraft should be fitted with no-mobile devices. mind you, they'd probably block other important communications. how about getting any pax who's phone that goes off to do the safety briefing?
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What's the problem?
To those posters who quote cases of phones being left on and getting home safely:
- how do you know it was safely - were you in the cockpit?
- even if nothing happened, the logic is akin to saying "I knew a
man who walked across a main road and nothing hit him, so
what's the problem?"
Most of the time there won't be a problem it's true. Not too long ago pilots suspected Gameboys and other devices of causing almost any anomaly - instead of writing problems in the log, crews filed journey reports quoting suspected electronic interference. This goes too far in the other direction and led, on occasion to aircraft with serious problems despatching without repair.
However, these devices Can cause problems - especially when they have had a fall, damaging the internal screening. The peaks of power are actually over 2 watts and a phone on a network makes a regular "squitter", which is the typical sound (see above) you get when your Natel is close to a radio or line telephone.
There is only one safe answer - the thing must be Off.
- how do you know it was safely - were you in the cockpit?
- even if nothing happened, the logic is akin to saying "I knew a
man who walked across a main road and nothing hit him, so
what's the problem?"
Most of the time there won't be a problem it's true. Not too long ago pilots suspected Gameboys and other devices of causing almost any anomaly - instead of writing problems in the log, crews filed journey reports quoting suspected electronic interference. This goes too far in the other direction and led, on occasion to aircraft with serious problems despatching without repair.
However, these devices Can cause problems - especially when they have had a fall, damaging the internal screening. The peaks of power are actually over 2 watts and a phone on a network makes a regular "squitter", which is the typical sound (see above) you get when your Natel is close to a radio or line telephone.
There is only one safe answer - the thing must be Off.
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Bloddy 'Phones,
One of my S/O trainees left his on in his pocket, we were 45 late due to the usual day type stuff,
SO as we rolled out on the runway, his sector, full reverse, the wife rang to see why he was late====
NOW HE USES TWO HANDS TO RIP THE PHONE OUT FROM UNDER THE SEAT BELT AS IT WAS IN THE TROUSER POCKET.
Safety F/O in J/Seat cancells reverse as "we were below 80 Kts Capt", but forgets to pause in idle so we speed up a bit from the redirected thrust.
I manage to keep it all on the runway and stop laughing long enough to taxi in to the bay.
Shall we say that is the danger of 'Phones on board??
Positive debrief to all, big KUA to S/O who is only a small glow in a dark room at best, roll on retirement.
One of my S/O trainees left his on in his pocket, we were 45 late due to the usual day type stuff,
SO as we rolled out on the runway, his sector, full reverse, the wife rang to see why he was late====
NOW HE USES TWO HANDS TO RIP THE PHONE OUT FROM UNDER THE SEAT BELT AS IT WAS IN THE TROUSER POCKET.
Safety F/O in J/Seat cancells reverse as "we were below 80 Kts Capt", but forgets to pause in idle so we speed up a bit from the redirected thrust.
I manage to keep it all on the runway and stop laughing long enough to taxi in to the bay.
Shall we say that is the danger of 'Phones on board??
Positive debrief to all, big KUA to S/O who is only a small glow in a dark room at best, roll on retirement.
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Why This Fuss?
Dear PPruners,
It is a surprise that so much doubt exists regarding usage of cellphone onboard aircraft. As a layperson one can have these doubts but "Moo" as an engineer on latest generation aircraft should have researched little before making a comment like that, no wonder he doesn't fly those he services!! I agree with "Few Cloudy" remark that it is not for the cellphone user to determine whether or not the flight was safe. If any one has any doubt please take a cellphone close to an aircraft compass and see for yourself. I personally had an occasion when an ATC's instruction could not be heard before take off from one airport and after landing in another, on a 737-800. On both occasion same person was using his cellphone.
If there as any further doubt, it can be clarified by going through a report on cellphone by CAA (Effects of Interference from Cellular Telephones on Aircraft Avionic Equipment) under the "Reports Forum" of PPrune.
A few watts of transmission or not, whether it interferes with aircraft system or not, it does seem to be causing lot of brain tumors around the world! (one died recently in London). So why add to that list when you can save your brain a few hours of cell storming!!!
Dear PPruners,
It is a surprise that so much doubt exists regarding usage of cellphone onboard aircraft. As a layperson one can have these doubts but "Moo" as an engineer on latest generation aircraft should have researched little before making a comment like that, no wonder he doesn't fly those he services!! I agree with "Few Cloudy" remark that it is not for the cellphone user to determine whether or not the flight was safe. If any one has any doubt please take a cellphone close to an aircraft compass and see for yourself. I personally had an occasion when an ATC's instruction could not be heard before take off from one airport and after landing in another, on a 737-800. On both occasion same person was using his cellphone.
If there as any further doubt, it can be clarified by going through a report on cellphone by CAA (Effects of Interference from Cellular Telephones on Aircraft Avionic Equipment) under the "Reports Forum" of PPrune.
A few watts of transmission or not, whether it interferes with aircraft system or not, it does seem to be causing lot of brain tumors around the world! (one died recently in London). So why add to that list when you can save your brain a few hours of cell storming!!!
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On a flt into LGW yesterday, radios were blocked by mobile seeking and blocking R/T comms. It didnt cause a huge problem but was very innconvienient. No idea where handset was. Should we have reported it???
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Crusing along in a very unsophisticated (at least not in the same league as the biggies) Rockwell Commander 114, guy in the back keyed in his numbers to ring for a pickup at the destination airport and pushed the send button...triggering a disconnect in the auto-pilot.
Phone interference is real. I've seen it in action.
Phone interference is real. I've seen it in action.
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ct. Yankee
Great you made it. That doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous.
I have flown CRJ 50 & 70 for years now & your right, normally there are no problems when phones are left on but there HAVE been problems.
We've had radio comms interference and even a spurious cargo fire indication (with obligatory diversion & evacuation which caused a/c damage & could easily ended up with people being hurt). Officially attributed to mobile phone signals.
You just don't know what might be affected what the consequences may be therefore it makes sense to take the variable out of the loop & ban their use on A/C.
Can't understand why anybody would argue with this, it's a safety issue.
I have flown CRJ 50 & 70 for years now & your right, normally there are no problems when phones are left on but there HAVE been problems.
We've had radio comms interference and even a spurious cargo fire indication (with obligatory diversion & evacuation which caused a/c damage & could easily ended up with people being hurt). Officially attributed to mobile phone signals.
You just don't know what might be affected what the consequences may be therefore it makes sense to take the variable out of the loop & ban their use on A/C.
Can't understand why anybody would argue with this, it's a safety issue.
Handys