Do you trust your Engineer

[m.e.l king]

Hi Just trying to get a feeling about how much you pilots trust the your engineer.
Did you you know there is currently a issue with respect to the new EASA license. Your friendly CAA issued licensed engineer has been throughly educated and trained with a minimum of 5 years structured training. On the continent your not so educated Licensed Engineer will in some countries be given the power to sign by just doing an Aircraft Type course with no previous structured training like an apprenticeship .
NO problem you think they work for the foreign airlines not mine. Well under EASA 66 these engineers are allowed to work anywhere in europe no restriction. What is happening is some cases are that people who are failing to meet the standards of the CAA issued License and are unable to pass the Modules to obtain a basic B license without type are going to the continent to have there licenses issued and then coming over here to work. These same people are not asking for the standard wage and therefore some maintenance companies are employing them. So next time you think your engineer does not know what he is talking about, maybe he just does'nt. As a Caa issued EASA B1-1 engineer I would like to see some support from the all and mighty Balpa and their members its in your interest.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Where did you get the 5 years from?

[Fargoo]

Similar thing is happening in the Uk, students cramming multi guess questions passing the exams. Then do a bit of OJT and bingo - fully licenced engineer.
Long gone are the days of a long apprentiship, years of experience then licence route.
I'm not particularly happy about it but that's the way it is.

[m.e.l king]

5 years.

3 years apprenticeship / Ab initio course.
2 years OJT befrore type approval issued by the CAA.
unless you know any different.

[unwiseowl]

1. Sadly BALPA is not "mighty"

2. I think most pilots would be pleased to see BALPA supporting our engineers. I think we have more respect for you guys than you sometimes realise.

3. Why don't you engineers get your own "mighty" union?

[m.e.l king]

Our own "mighty" union the ALAE are doing their best to highlight the issue with letters detailing their worries to EASA in cologne. The options are either the CAA lower their requirements in line with the rest of europe or we just put up and shut up.

ultimately its is all down to safety and an engineer will sign to say the aircraft is safe to fly then get off the aircraft leaving you to fly the aircraft believing he knows what he is talking about.

[JW411]

Do You Trust Your Engineer?

Yes.

[Loose rivets]

Yes, gone are the good old days when the master craftsman would slap the hand of the apprentice…right onto the sharp ends of the locking wire, shoud he have wrapped it the wrong way.

[Techman]

Ahh yes. The usual rant from a British LAE.

Beauties like "The options are either the CAA lower their requirements in line with the rest of europe or we just put up and shut up." just reinforces the impression that either Brits have a inflated view of their licence or they have no idea how it is done in other European countries. Or a bit of both.

I have worked with Swedish, Norwegian, American, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Philipino, Malaysian, Indonesian, Irish, Danish, Dutch, Belgian, Brazilian, Canadian, Iranian, Indian, Pakistani and Sri Lankan ground engineers. And more I have forgotten where came from. I have even worked with Brits.

And let me tell you that on average those with a UK CAA issued licence were no better or worse than anybody else.

[UTRF]

ditto

I quite agree with you Techman. I have worked with many foreign licence holding engineers and have nothing but the upmost respect for them. I do, to some extent, agree that some UK LAE's have an elevated opinion of themselves but you cant blame them when they see the ease that european nationals obtain their EASA licence, not that it is a prefered alternative in many UK maintenance organisations. I dont think we should judge a book by its cover, so to speak, as there are some foreign engineers I rate higher than some of the UK engineers I come into contact with.
What we should be saying to the crews we serve is, be confident of the engineers you meet as they have you and your crew and passengers safety paramount in their minds.....not some OTR or TDR statistic.

UTRF

[GotTheTshirt]

Techman for some of us who had our licences in the 60's (with the ARB) the rant is about how we had to jump through hoops to get the licence and then see others come into the system by collecting box tops.
Most of us are not as you put it it ranting about how good we are but about the fact that anybody can do the same function ( ie sign off!) with less effort.

Most of us had to do many licence exams to get the same cover that today they do with a couple.
If you do not believe that the standards are lowered then I suggest you try an ARB LAE exam ( Not multi guess!)

I would say in mitigation that the aircraft have become far more self testing and forgiving.
You have training courses which were not available 40 years ago
Plus you have CD manuals instead of the ex USAAF manuals we had on DC3 ! and of course all regs on Internet.
Have you ever filed a set of FAA AD paper Bi-Weeklys?


From your post you were obviously of the WTR brigade ( or is it just Approval !)

[TURIN]

Your friendly CAA issued licensed engineer has been throughly educated and trained......

But probably not in spelling and punctuation eh, melking?





Back to the point of the thread,

The issue is not that others are more/less well trained but that for a Brit to get a B1 license takes a lot of work whereas in other parts of (EASA) Europe it is somewhat easier.

With the cost of living in UK being what it is the smart move for any employer is to give the job to the chap who got his license 'on approval' through the post and will work for minimum wage!

[DFC]

Obvously this would have nothing to do with protectionism.

I don't care if the engineer had his qualifications issued on the back of a fag packet provided that they can complete the required tasks to the requird standard.

No one here has any evidence of sub-standard work and until they do, they can not argue about any lowering of standards.

Regards,

DFC

[GotTheTshirt]

DFC

You dont get out much then ?

Eastern L1011 MCD
Alaskan MD Stab trim
Concorde wheel assy
Beech 1900 trim cables
LH A300 trim switch

[lethalweapon]

My answer to your question

NO ! My question to you WHY ?

[spannersatcx]

Eastern L1011 MCD
Alaskan MD Stab trim
Concorde wheel assy
Beech 1900 trim cables
LH A300 trim switch

DFC Not forgetting the BMI oil caps or mcd's or whatever it was that was left off, or the fls 320 spoilers that were locked out of course!

Whilst none of us are perfect, we are not all conquering either.

In years gone by the UK qualified engineer has been held in high regard, because as previously stated, there was no "easy" route for the UK CAA LWTR, and it was a lot harder to get the basics. If I had the choice I know which route I would take, like most things, the easy route!

Whilst the principal of the "european" licence is a good one, unfortunately there is not a level playing field, and as far as I know there is no legislation to make it so, the fact that the UK CAA see's it as a money making exercise it's never going to change.

There are a lot of interesting letters and articles at the ALAE website should you require further reading. So far there has been no concrete evidence to support what the starter of this thread suggests, until such time as there is you will have to use the system as it is, rightly or wrongly.

[cribble]

Got The Shirt,

IIRC the Alaskan MD stab screw seizure was a result of the company (abetted by FAA) changing the tasks on the maintanence schedule.

It is late, perhaps that's why I can't see the connection between line maintainers' qualifications and your example.

I stand to be corrected, of course.

[Mr.Brown]

I had to go through more or less the same system as the CAA's to get my IAA AMEL pre-JAR66. I'm sick of this CAA is the best! Alot of people have their heads stuck up their own ****.
NOW, the Examination and experience requirements are the very same for each member state, The only problem was with grandfather rights, as there was so many different Licenceing systems to come together as one, there was alot of issues and differences.
Under the new system however, "everyone" has to pass all the required modules as laid done by EASA PART66 and have a minimum of 5 years experience. This minimum experience level can be reduced dependant on your background.
A CAA issued PART66 Licence now is the same as any other, Older licnece holders who converted theirs might have had a harder path, but things have changed. HOW many PART66 "A" licensed engineers who's Licensed are issued by the CAA under protected rights have done CAA exams? Who cares!!! There is a system in place and when all us older chaps leave the game, everyone will have the very same and everyone will forget about this "MY LICENCE IS BETTER THAN YOUR LICENCE"
Oh and one last punch, 5 years to become an engineer thats what about 4 1/2 years longer than a pilot.

DO YOU TRUST YOUR PILOT????

[spannersatcx]

A CAA issued PART66 Licence now is the same as any other

That may be, however a lot, if not all, contract agencies and airlines ask for UK CAA Part 66 licence holders! Perhaps there is a reason for that, who knows!

[Krystal n chips]

Mr Brown --to answer your question-----I would trust a newly trained pilot in the same way I would a new engineer.

We all have to learn do we not ?--- and we all make mistakes do we not ? --human beings being fallible I believe?---so I think the answer to your question is yes--until proven otherwise.