Do you trust your Engineer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
spannersatcx,
Those incidents you quote as far as I am aware happened after maintenance was carried out by engineers licensed by the appropriate country's authority.
There is no evidence that work carried out by a qualified engineer from the UK is any better than that carried out by an engienner anywhere else in Europe.
-------
That may be, however a lot, if not all, contract agencies and airlines ask for UK CAA Part 66 licence holders! Perhaps there is a reason for that, who knows!
Protectionism? Not being aware of the law? Not being aware of the fact that other EU citizens holding the appropriate EASA qualifications are equally entitled to apply for whatever position they are advertising?
--------
Quite ironic a situation really that the old UK keep Europe out brigade falls flat on it's face at every turn!
If one spends even a small amount of time looking into the matter one will see that there are a number of organisations providing the appropriate training for engineers in European countries which are UK owned and UK based. Of course, these European engineers will receive their piece of paper from whatever country they are in but the poor standards claimed here (if they are true) will have been a direct result of poor UK standards in training them.
Regards,
DFC
Those incidents you quote as far as I am aware happened after maintenance was carried out by engineers licensed by the appropriate country's authority.
There is no evidence that work carried out by a qualified engineer from the UK is any better than that carried out by an engienner anywhere else in Europe.
-------
That may be, however a lot, if not all, contract agencies and airlines ask for UK CAA Part 66 licence holders! Perhaps there is a reason for that, who knows!
Protectionism? Not being aware of the law? Not being aware of the fact that other EU citizens holding the appropriate EASA qualifications are equally entitled to apply for whatever position they are advertising?
--------
Quite ironic a situation really that the old UK keep Europe out brigade falls flat on it's face at every turn!
If one spends even a small amount of time looking into the matter one will see that there are a number of organisations providing the appropriate training for engineers in European countries which are UK owned and UK based. Of course, these European engineers will receive their piece of paper from whatever country they are in but the poor standards claimed here (if they are true) will have been a direct result of poor UK standards in training them.
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Desert
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is like going from 200hrs approved course to rhs commercial jet. With the approved training it is perfectly acceptable nowdays and flogging around building 700 hours in a C152 is no longer necessary or appropriate. One could argue that the same should apply to Engineering today. I myself served a 4 year apprenticeship and most of my training is unnecessary in todays operations. A systems and type course with problem solving logic is all that is required today. If someone has the basic aptitude for the job then all that is required is sound understanding and being able to follow steps in a manual.
Provided the courses are approved and standards are met, I see no problem. I trust them.
Provided the courses are approved and standards are met, I see no problem. I trust them.
DFC what Spanners was (i believe )referring to is employers based outside Europe such as the Middle East & Singapore.
I have myself seen many advertisements with a similar rider.
I must admit to seeing few advertisements for jobs outside Europe, calling for engineers (from within Europe) with qualifications issued by NAA's other than the UK CAA. I would not care to speculate as to the reasoning behind this.
I have myself seen many advertisements with a similar rider.
I must admit to seeing few advertisements for jobs outside Europe, calling for engineers (from within Europe) with qualifications issued by NAA's other than the UK CAA. I would not care to speculate as to the reasoning behind this.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,995
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFC the quote from gottheshirt was pointing to incidentson a/c not from the UK, I was merely pointing out even those in the UK can and do make mistakes, as someone else said we are after all human, I think!
Really! A type course doesn't teach you the basics, of such things like banging rivets in, pitch, land etc, which you would of course need when someone drives a truck into an engine cowl, as that doesn't show up on EICAS, ECAM or in the CMC, so you still need a foundation in basic engineering processes etc.
I was recently in a maintrol and they took a call, asking for a fix, I couldn't believe what was being asked as to me it was 'basic stuff' a quick look in the SRM would of given them the fix, speaking to the controller and he said it was getting more and more like that these days, the guys do the training etc but don't have the background of basics! Anything out of the ordinary and they are stuck, whether that's the ability to think on your feet or basic grounding that's lacking, or lack of experience I don't know.
Once the old gits (like me) start retiring or leaving the industry makes you wonder what state it will be in!
A systems and type course with problem solving logic is all that is required today
I was recently in a maintrol and they took a call, asking for a fix, I couldn't believe what was being asked as to me it was 'basic stuff' a quick look in the SRM would of given them the fix, speaking to the controller and he said it was getting more and more like that these days, the guys do the training etc but don't have the background of basics! Anything out of the ordinary and they are stuck, whether that's the ability to think on your feet or basic grounding that's lacking, or lack of experience I don't know.
Once the old gits (like me) start retiring or leaving the industry makes you wonder what state it will be in!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Desert
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spannersatcx, I appreciate your point on basics but as I said, if you follow the manual and there is an "old git" to oversee then that is where we are today.
Comparing the 200 hour approved course pilot is exactly the same. He/She will rely on the "old Gits" like us in the left seat .
Problem comes when we are not there any more and the are looking to someone with the same background only around longer. It is happening with flight crew now, it will happen in Engineering soon.
What can we do? We have to trust them.
They can point to the boy in the right seat with 300 hours. If you are not happy, then don't take the aircraft and explain it to your boss.
Comparing the 200 hour approved course pilot is exactly the same. He/She will rely on the "old Gits" like us in the left seat .
Problem comes when we are not there any more and the are looking to someone with the same background only around longer. It is happening with flight crew now, it will happen in Engineering soon.
What can we do? We have to trust them.
They can point to the boy in the right seat with 300 hours. If you are not happy, then don't take the aircraft and explain it to your boss.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good evening all
and thank god the reports coming in are that the Air France passengers and crew are ok.
Ok isn't this whole argument more about a common standard rather than who makes the mistakes. It seems to be typically European that we trumpet a common goal, a common market, working in unity etc. etc., yet when all is said and done, everyone goes back home and does whatever it is in their own way.
There have been many discussions on this topic all over the place and I have to ask is it worth worrying about?
Whether pro or anti European the fact is, that there is too much history and Europe will never be at one common level. Probably better that way.
I would like to think however that the UK CAA guys are not sounding off about being better but rather just highlighting things are not as equal as all the propaganda suggested it would be.
and thank god the reports coming in are that the Air France passengers and crew are ok.
Ok isn't this whole argument more about a common standard rather than who makes the mistakes. It seems to be typically European that we trumpet a common goal, a common market, working in unity etc. etc., yet when all is said and done, everyone goes back home and does whatever it is in their own way.
There have been many discussions on this topic all over the place and I have to ask is it worth worrying about?
Whether pro or anti European the fact is, that there is too much history and Europe will never be at one common level. Probably better that way.
I would like to think however that the UK CAA guys are not sounding off about being better but rather just highlighting things are not as equal as all the propaganda suggested it would be.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thus far, 1 reply in the affirmative from all the responses, the rest being squabblers argueing the toss over standards that by the very nature of our industry WILL evolve ( read that as change - from magamps to LCD displays if you will ).
Does this tend to indicate that Engineers generally aren't trusted by their customers ? or is it perhaps that in the main, Pilots really couldn't care less about their Engineers ?
Not a slag at either camp but an observation drawn from over 40 years industry experience.
Does this tend to indicate that Engineers generally aren't trusted by their customers ? or is it perhaps that in the main, Pilots really couldn't care less about their Engineers ?
Not a slag at either camp but an observation drawn from over 40 years industry experience.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: East Sussex
Age: 68
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The question was 'do you trust your Engineer?'
Why has this thread degraded into yet another 'willy waving' contest regarding which authority or which country produces the best or worst engineers? Some Engineers really do themselves no favours when they behave in such a way.
I have worked in aircraft maintenance for a fair few operators in various roles worldwide for a number of years and I for one would like to see exactly what the concensus of opinion from the flying fraternity is to the question that has been asked.
Temps.
Why has this thread degraded into yet another 'willy waving' contest regarding which authority or which country produces the best or worst engineers? Some Engineers really do themselves no favours when they behave in such a way.
I have worked in aircraft maintenance for a fair few operators in various roles worldwide for a number of years and I for one would like to see exactly what the concensus of opinion from the flying fraternity is to the question that has been asked.
Temps.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on guys, dont you think you are being a bit harsh.
Yes there was a one sentence question but then a whole bunch more about differing standards.
Perhaps the original poster knows more than he has posted, perhaps not. But sniping at every comment wont achieve anything.
Do I trust engineers? depends on the individual.
Nothing to do with authorities or nationalities or anything else.
I would hope though that the company employing the engineer has done their homework on him.
As to differing standards, many misconceptions often arise due to a lack of understanding of the local language and culture.
If there really is an issue out there it should be dealt with. However at the moment no evidence has been posted here.
Yes there was a one sentence question but then a whole bunch more about differing standards.
Perhaps the original poster knows more than he has posted, perhaps not. But sniping at every comment wont achieve anything.
Do I trust engineers? depends on the individual.
Nothing to do with authorities or nationalities or anything else.
I would hope though that the company employing the engineer has done their homework on him.
As to differing standards, many misconceptions often arise due to a lack of understanding of the local language and culture.
If there really is an issue out there it should be dealt with. However at the moment no evidence has been posted here.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Uk
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
engineers
Good Day all
An enginner can self study the modules for a B Licence, gain a type course through an approved training organisation but unless that engineer is fully competent/qualified in the companys eyes he would never be given a company approval/stamp.
In which case he he would not be certyfying anything.
I would agree that the apprenticeships and licence route before JAR/EASA was much more thourough, the old A+C, X, R Licences were sometimes thought as being more difficult than any degrees out there especially with the negative marking.
I still belive though that the engineers nowadays who certify those aircraft flying above us at the moment do it with nothing other than safety of a/c pax and crew in mind at all times.
An enginner can self study the modules for a B Licence, gain a type course through an approved training organisation but unless that engineer is fully competent/qualified in the companys eyes he would never be given a company approval/stamp.
In which case he he would not be certyfying anything.
I would agree that the apprenticeships and licence route before JAR/EASA was much more thourough, the old A+C, X, R Licences were sometimes thought as being more difficult than any degrees out there especially with the negative marking.
I still belive though that the engineers nowadays who certify those aircraft flying above us at the moment do it with nothing other than safety of a/c pax and crew in mind at all times.
Pilots' Pal
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: USA
Age: 63
Posts: 1,158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been fortunate to have worked around the world with a variety of LAEs of different nationalities. By and large, we are all similar in nature. We are also all exposed to commercial pressures and some of us do not respond as we should.
(BTW, with regard to aviation incidents/accidents, most have an element of management failing as a factor. Think of Britt Air, Alaska 261, American 191, BMI oil loss etc).
We put up with poor facilities, poor equipment/tooling, lack of spares, the old sweats who "have always done it this way and have never had an accident" (must be about due, then)etc. We also appreciate Human Factors training but, along with many managers, we ignore it.
Despite my previous carping about pilots (
), I firmly believe safety is a joint effort.
I have reservations about EASA, JAR/Part 66 and other regs. EASA believes the UK CAA over-regulates but our accident rate is very low; that said, so too is that of ECAC and EU states. 2004 was one of the best years for the accident rate: 475 fatalities from 26 accidents. However, irrefutably, maintenance error is on the increase and the fact that the statistics are not worse could be a function of inherently reliable aircraft with redundant systems.
(BTW, with regard to aviation incidents/accidents, most have an element of management failing as a factor. Think of Britt Air, Alaska 261, American 191, BMI oil loss etc).
We put up with poor facilities, poor equipment/tooling, lack of spares, the old sweats who "have always done it this way and have never had an accident" (must be about due, then)etc. We also appreciate Human Factors training but, along with many managers, we ignore it.
Despite my previous carping about pilots (
), I firmly believe safety is a joint effort.I have reservations about EASA, JAR/Part 66 and other regs. EASA believes the UK CAA over-regulates but our accident rate is very low; that said, so too is that of ECAC and EU states. 2004 was one of the best years for the accident rate: 475 fatalities from 26 accidents. However, irrefutably, maintenance error is on the increase and the fact that the statistics are not worse could be a function of inherently reliable aircraft with redundant systems.
Last edited by Bus429; 4th Aug 2005 at 07:59.
Yes: 100%, and my company looks down upon them as if they were low life, wanting to furlough at least half of them-permanently. They want most of our own "engineers/mechanics" to go the way of the hairy mammoth, and relish the idea of treating them as such, by figuratively pushing them with long spears until they fall into a pit or over a cliff .
They plan to do this whether they give up a big chunk of salary or not. Stone-age attitude, stone-age resolve in response (our mgmt. makes the Belgae look tame).
They plan to do this whether they give up a big chunk of salary or not. Stone-age attitude, stone-age resolve in response (our mgmt. makes the Belgae look tame).
Pilots' Pal
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: USA
Age: 63
Posts: 1,158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good points, Ignition.
I believe our American maintenance colleagues are classified as "semi-skilled"; a gross travesty. I also learn that all is not sweetness and light with the maintenance teams at United and NWA.
I believe our American maintenance colleagues are classified as "semi-skilled"; a gross travesty. I also learn that all is not sweetness and light with the maintenance teams at United and NWA.
