Air India Plane Skids off Runway
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Have been operating regularly in/out of BOM last 4 month .. on contract here. Used to quite marginal winter ops in scandinavia from previous experiense.
Operating with little margin to limts, it's imperative that information which decisions are based on are correct. I personally found windinfo from BOM to be quite unreliable (reported windspeed often on lower side) and as stated ealier there is no means of measuring friction coefficient or B.A.. I never saw rwy-info like standing water or water patches either (only info wet or dry).
If airport-authorities are not able to give precise info on rwy state above regular wet and windinfo not reliable, they should close the rwy rather than pushing crews into last second surprises with little or no time to react and decide.
Facelac
Operating with little margin to limts, it's imperative that information which decisions are based on are correct. I personally found windinfo from BOM to be quite unreliable (reported windspeed often on lower side) and as stated ealier there is no means of measuring friction coefficient or B.A.. I never saw rwy-info like standing water or water patches either (only info wet or dry).
If airport-authorities are not able to give precise info on rwy state above regular wet and windinfo not reliable, they should close the rwy rather than pushing crews into last second surprises with little or no time to react and decide.
Facelac
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ITS HAPPENED BEFORE
HEY THIS ISNT THE FIRST TIME ITS HAPPENED , IT HAPPENED IN 1999 TOO THAT WAS AN AIR INDIA 747 300 COMBI.ALSO OVER RAN ,DIFFERENCE IS THAT THERE IS NO UNION TO GET THIS PILOT BACK, HAVING FLOWN IN AN OUT OF BOMBAY ON 747 I GOT TO SAY THERE ISINT ANY ROOM FOR AN ERROR OR A SMOOTH LANDING ON THAT RUNWAY, EVEN IN DRY CONDITIONS....POOR CAPTAIN OF THIS FLIGHT TAIL WIND ,CONTAMINATED RUNWAY AND FLOWN THE WHOLE NIGHT ,ANYTHING CAN BE SAID NOW SITTING IN OUR ROOMS BUT WHEN YOU THERE YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT GOES THROUGH,....AND THE MINISTER AND THE PUBLIC REALATION MANAGER ARE SAYING THINGS EVEN WITHOUT A PRIMARY ENQUIRY BEING DONE ......SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS.....
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Air India B744 skids
Well Rwy 27 has been in service
for Dep and now from today they have approved a Spl Visual App with viz req of 1500m, with this they are using Rwy 27, but believe its still scary and braking action is bull ****, but then, its still better then the ski-slope Rwy 14.
Happy Landings!
for Dep and now from today they have approved a Spl Visual App with viz req of 1500m, with this they are using Rwy 27, but believe its still scary and braking action is bull ****, but then, its still better then the ski-slope Rwy 14.
Happy Landings!
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nose in the muck
From what I heard the guy did a go around first before landing and I must say he did a mighty good job of not using brakes and only reversers for the obvious !.... the deep landing was probably the main cause of the overshoot but then again I say quedos to the capt .
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Assuming a level runway, nil wind, ISA etc. etc. a heavy 747-400 pax aircraft at max landing of 285 tons requires about 6700'
Coming from Bangalore he may have been quite light, (for a Jumbo), and this may have exacerbated the float too.
Hated that runway, very happy when our company forbade its use!
Coming from Bangalore he may have been quite light, (for a Jumbo), and this may have exacerbated the float too.
Hated that runway, very happy when our company forbade its use!
Manadasytem. Interesting comment of yours re autobrakes will cause skidding. Are you suggesting that manual brakes will not cause skidding? Assuming both applied at touch-down? Isn't that why there is anti-skid systems on modern aircraft - so the wheels won't skid period?
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Well today was worse in terms of landing.Moderate to heavy rain over the field.
RW09 was in use with tailwinds of 35-40kts from 1000ft till touchdown and poor braking action.TO quote the ATC "very very poor braking action reported past the intersection of rw 09/27 and 14/32 and previous landing aircraft reported tailwinds of 35 kts at 200ft, say intentions".
Pretty harrowing experience and had about 4 aircrafts going around.Finally landed when tower observed winds were 310/09 kts.
This is a disaster waiting to happen and ATC should suspend operations into Mumbai or get the ILS for 27 opertional ASAP.
As far as our minister and officials are concerned they are as clueless as a toddler in a strip bar and should refrain from opening theirs gobs.
RW09 was in use with tailwinds of 35-40kts from 1000ft till touchdown and poor braking action.TO quote the ATC "very very poor braking action reported past the intersection of rw 09/27 and 14/32 and previous landing aircraft reported tailwinds of 35 kts at 200ft, say intentions".
Pretty harrowing experience and had about 4 aircrafts going around.Finally landed when tower observed winds were 310/09 kts.
This is a disaster waiting to happen and ATC should suspend operations into Mumbai or get the ILS for 27 opertional ASAP.
As far as our minister and officials are concerned they are as clueless as a toddler in a strip bar and should refrain from opening theirs gobs.
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There is some very intellegent and useful input coming in on this thread about the conditions at Mumbai airport, especially from those who have regularly flown in and out of busy VABB.
I suggest you keep them coming in and in a while email this link to the DGCA for a read. With any luck a Flight Inspector might read it and be armed with some first hand input on practical everyday issues to take this topic up further with the DGCA, Aviation Ministry and Airports Authorities of India.
Mumbai airport IS an accident waiting to happen and facilities need to be improved dramatically and very soon (before Monsoon 2006).
It's a shame to know the number of aircraft Diverting from a major city like Bombay or Holding and burning precious expensive fuel only because they cannot be accommodated for an approach for absurd reasons.... or having to go-around (or go off the runway!) only because information given to them (wind, visibility/RVR) was incorrect or non-existant (braking action, friction co-efficient).
I suggest you keep them coming in and in a while email this link to the DGCA for a read. With any luck a Flight Inspector might read it and be armed with some first hand input on practical everyday issues to take this topic up further with the DGCA, Aviation Ministry and Airports Authorities of India.
Mumbai airport IS an accident waiting to happen and facilities need to be improved dramatically and very soon (before Monsoon 2006).
It's a shame to know the number of aircraft Diverting from a major city like Bombay or Holding and burning precious expensive fuel only because they cannot be accommodated for an approach for absurd reasons.... or having to go-around (or go off the runway!) only because information given to them (wind, visibility/RVR) was incorrect or non-existant (braking action, friction co-efficient).
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Centaurus
Quote:
Patel said the Air India pilot was a senior executive pilot who had decided not to apply hard brakes, which could have increased the chances of skidding when torrential rains were on.
I was responding to this post, which to me makes absolutely no sense. We have anti skid so we CAN brake, manually or automatic under all conditions. The statement above is pure rubbish!
Alpha Leader
I thought an ISO certification ment they were really thorough with everything. After all, MAA (Chennai), another Indian ISO certified airport, and according to NOTAM they have been loading new software for the terminal radar since 1999!
I will never respect any ISO certification ever again!
As an airport, BOM is a dump. All runways are of poor standard, slippery and uneven, inadequate navaids and weird procedures. Security is non existent with people and dogs wandering around the manouvering area.
The same can be said about a number of Indian airports, but the dogs seem to prefer BOM.
Patel said the Air India pilot was a senior executive pilot who had decided not to apply hard brakes, which could have increased the chances of skidding when torrential rains were on.
I was responding to this post, which to me makes absolutely no sense. We have anti skid so we CAN brake, manually or automatic under all conditions. The statement above is pure rubbish!
Alpha Leader
I thought an ISO certification ment they were really thorough with everything. After all, MAA (Chennai), another Indian ISO certified airport, and according to NOTAM they have been loading new software for the terminal radar since 1999!
I will never respect any ISO certification ever again!
As an airport, BOM is a dump. All runways are of poor standard, slippery and uneven, inadequate navaids and weird procedures. Security is non existent with people and dogs wandering around the manouvering area.
The same can be said about a number of Indian airports, but the dogs seem to prefer BOM.
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There can be no doubt that the current state of affairs is not desireable. While these posts might be an input for the Flight Inspectors, I would imagine that some of them would have flown in/out of Mumbai in the last week, and hopefully things improve. I think the operators too have a responsibility, both towards their crew and impressing upon the "authorities" the need for quick action.
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ISO
As someone who deals with ISO (9001) matters on a day to day basis (one of my day jobs) for my organsation... When conducting an audit for ISO9001 -the 'gameplan' is to take a sample of an organisations processes/procedures. That really is the best one can do. It also depends how long the auditors spent and which areas they focused on.
Maybe when re-certification comes around the auditors should take note of the comments above by various posters here and audit this part (landing aid systems?) of Mumbai's operation more closely. This could be achived by the experiences of flight deck crew being sent onto the DGCA??
A search on google also reveals the Commander and co-pilots names of this flight (from various press articles).
I wont bother posting the names here. So much for annonimity...
How about asking this question. If the airport is ISO certified was this aspect of their operation audited??
Just my 2p worth..
Has.
Maybe when re-certification comes around the auditors should take note of the comments above by various posters here and audit this part (landing aid systems?) of Mumbai's operation more closely. This could be achived by the experiences of flight deck crew being sent onto the DGCA??
A search on google also reveals the Commander and co-pilots names of this flight (from various press articles).
I wont bother posting the names here. So much for annonimity...
How about asking this question. If the airport is ISO certified was this aspect of their operation audited??
Just my 2p worth..
Has.
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9W and all
Agree totally that only way to keep airport authorities maintaining standards is to report, report and report all irregularities and anything below standard. This goes for flightdeck crew and in turn operators that ultimately should suspend operations for rwy's in question.
Rgds facelac
Agree totally that only way to keep airport authorities maintaining standards is to report, report and report all irregularities and anything below standard. This goes for flightdeck crew and in turn operators that ultimately should suspend operations for rwy's in question.
Rgds facelac
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I don't deal with ISO9001 certification, except indirectly as part of my work in helping organisations achieve BS7799 security certification, but my understanding is that (summarising several hundred pages of standard into two lines) ISO9001 requires that:
(a) all procedures within the organisation are fully documented
(b) documented procedures are followed consistently.
It has very little bearing on whether those procedures are 'good' or not! Apologies for derailing the thread ...
(a) all procedures within the organisation are fully documented
(b) documented procedures are followed consistently.
It has very little bearing on whether those procedures are 'good' or not! Apologies for derailing the thread ...
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Facelac....I do agree that reporting will help but in this country you need to grease palms as well and that unfortunately is the only way for things to get done,even though it is the correct course of action.
Dogs,men are all a menace and a month back a crocodile was run over at runway in the town of Vadodara(Formely Baroda VABO).Heavy rain over the field and was run over by an ATR.It had come onto the runway due flooding of the river.
I do hope that this link is sent to some of the flight operation inspectors and especially to those at our so called Airport authorties.
Dogs,men are all a menace and a month back a crocodile was run over at runway in the town of Vadodara(Formely Baroda VABO).Heavy rain over the field and was run over by an ATR.It had come onto the runway due flooding of the river.
I do hope that this link is sent to some of the flight operation inspectors and especially to those at our so called Airport authorties.
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Some good news for the future
Things have atleast started moving in the right direction.....
BOM and DEL the airport modernisation contracts should (hopefully) be finalised by the end of the year. Major players are in the fray including Fraport/ADP/?Hochtief/Changi........
BLR and HYD, things are already moving and both should be over by mid 2008. BLR has Unique with a stake while HYD has Malaysian Airports.
And best of all both these new airports will not be AAI managed......(although ATC will still be with them.).
BOM and DEL the airport modernisation contracts should (hopefully) be finalised by the end of the year. Major players are in the fray including Fraport/ADP/?Hochtief/Changi........
BLR and HYD, things are already moving and both should be over by mid 2008. BLR has Unique with a stake while HYD has Malaysian Airports.
And best of all both these new airports will not be AAI managed......(although ATC will still be with them.).
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Pax V. / Alpha L.
Best summary I've seen about ISO 9001 - congrats.
It is the "guaranteed consistant poor quality and stupid procedures standard". Also heard it call the 'McDumb' standard.
It is the "guaranteed consistant poor quality and stupid procedures standard". Also heard it call the 'McDumb' standard.
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Article on the Hindu
A relevant article appeared today on The Hindu on the topic
(www.Hinduonnet.com)
http://www.hindu.com/2005/08/10/stor...1005841100.htm
Cheers
(www.Hinduonnet.com)
http://www.hindu.com/2005/08/10/stor...1005841100.htm
Cheers