Fully ready to push (honest mate)
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Fully ready to push (honest mate)
Enough already of this daft game.
Catch 22, you cant claim to be fully ready without a tug, and you cant have a tug until you are on the ‘push list’ near the end, but you cant get on the list until are ‘fully ready’.
We all play it but there must be a better way.
This week departures were suspended several times while CBs passed overhead and this soon built up a backlog approaching 40ish aircraft (according to delivery).
All of there guys were claiming to be fully ready, so when they were given push clearance there was then an embarrassing admission that they have no tug.
This results in tugs connecting, getting called off, disconnecting and tearing round the apron getting nothing done fast. I finally got pushed by the 4th guy to connect!
During the frequent times or chaos at LHR would it not be more sensible to drop the requirement for a tug to be ‘fully ready’ and have ATC send one to you when THEY are going to let you go, or is that too simple?
It seems that a touch of common sense and liaison could lower the workload for pilots, ATC, and tug crews during such times.
Bish
Catch 22, you cant claim to be fully ready without a tug, and you cant have a tug until you are on the ‘push list’ near the end, but you cant get on the list until are ‘fully ready’.
We all play it but there must be a better way.
This week departures were suspended several times while CBs passed overhead and this soon built up a backlog approaching 40ish aircraft (according to delivery).
All of there guys were claiming to be fully ready, so when they were given push clearance there was then an embarrassing admission that they have no tug.
This results in tugs connecting, getting called off, disconnecting and tearing round the apron getting nothing done fast. I finally got pushed by the 4th guy to connect!
During the frequent times or chaos at LHR would it not be more sensible to drop the requirement for a tug to be ‘fully ready’ and have ATC send one to you when THEY are going to let you go, or is that too simple?
It seems that a touch of common sense and liaison could lower the workload for pilots, ATC, and tug crews during such times.
Bish
Paxing All Over The World
Non-Pilot speaking: The reduction in efficiency of having tugs connect and disconnect is so obvious that it makes one gasp. It sounds as if, when the situation is bad and back-logs have built up, the system makes it worse!
I realise, of course, that BAA are never going to buy more tugs and hire more staff, so talking about a new procedure is staggeringly obvious. With all the flight crews knowing that to call 'Full Ready' when they are not is going to exacerbate things and yet they have little choice but to do so as their Ops will want to know why they didn't try and claw up the ladder!
Talking is always the most difficult thing for management to do.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
I realise, of course, that BAA are never going to buy more tugs and hire more staff, so talking about a new procedure is staggeringly obvious. With all the flight crews knowing that to call 'Full Ready' when they are not is going to exacerbate things and yet they have little choice but to do so as their Ops will want to know why they didn't try and claw up the ladder!
Talking is always the most difficult thing for management to do.
--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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that BAA are never going to buy more tugs and hire more staff,
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Apointed andling agents or the airline itself normally provide the ground equipment including tugs. So, much as I would like to, it is unfair to blame the BAA or perhaps even ATC as it is seems more of an airline generated problem.
mostly harmless
Talking is always the most difficult thing for management to do.
Listening is always the most difficult thing for management to do.
I speak as a manager.
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A few times recently when we've gotten into heavy outbound delays at LHR we've got a/c to report "ready without a tug", abnd then keep them up to date on how long they can expect to be delayed, so they can 'order' a tug from company in good time. Or with BA one of our assistants would periodically phone up BA ops with the next ten to start in order, so that BA sent tugs to those next to start.
Ive seen this procedure work very well at LHR on days with bad fog or snow delays. It's impossible for every aircraft waiting to start to have a tug hooked up, there are just not enough of them. ATC tell us we will be started in say 10-15 or 15-20 minutes and you can then liase with the handling company to get a tug sorted, problem solved.
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The bottom line is that you will be at the mercy of the handling agency concerned (non company aircraft). Depending on where you are in the good company list (ie good payer or not) will determine how well you are served 
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Well if it were problem solved, why when things get a little busy (and when aren’t they at LHR) do things rapidly deteriorate into the fiasco described in my first post.
Perhaps the theory and good intentions are there but it rarely holds water in my experience.
Perhaps the theory and good intentions are there but it rarely holds water in my experience.
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Bishop of Baku, I can only speak for my own watch on the way Delivery is run. There are constant efforts to promote 'best practice' across the unit.
I'm not quite sure where the problems lie, but as has been described above, we as ATC have no control over where tugs go. We can tell the airlines when (approximately) their flights will be starting up, and hope they use that information wisely.
From ATC's point of view, you need to be ready to push now (including tug) when I chuck you to Ground, because when things are going crazy, I will only start you when I know you can push. If there's an opening in the K cul-de-sac, and you go to Ground without a tug and thus don't push for ten minutes, that's ten minutes wasted where another outbound in K could have pushed and taxied.
I'm not quite sure where the problems lie, but as has been described above, we as ATC have no control over where tugs go. We can tell the airlines when (approximately) their flights will be starting up, and hope they use that information wisely.
From ATC's point of view, you need to be ready to push now (including tug) when I chuck you to Ground, because when things are going crazy, I will only start you when I know you can push. If there's an opening in the K cul-de-sac, and you go to Ground without a tug and thus don't push for ten minutes, that's ten minutes wasted where another outbound in K could have pushed and taxied.
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In computer speak this problem is called "Thrashing" and it's well understood. It occurs when too many programs compete for resources. The computer spends all its time switching between the programs and doesn't actually manage to execute any of them.
Does this sound very familiar....
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...214055,00.html
One stratergy for reducing thrashing is to allocate resources for minimum periods of time.
Does this sound very familiar....
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...214055,00.html
Thrashing
Thrashing is computer activity that makes little or no progress, usually because memory or other resources have become exhausted or too limited to perform needed operations. When this happens, a pattern typically develops in which a request is made of the operating system by a process or program, the operating system tries to find resources by taking them from some other process, which in turn makes new requests that can't be satisfied. In a virtual storage system (an operating system that manages its logical storage or memory in units called pages), thrashing is a condition in which excessive paging operations are taking place.
Thrashing is computer activity that makes little or no progress, usually because memory or other resources have become exhausted or too limited to perform needed operations. When this happens, a pattern typically develops in which a request is made of the operating system by a process or program, the operating system tries to find resources by taking them from some other process, which in turn makes new requests that can't be satisfied. In a virtual storage system (an operating system that manages its logical storage or memory in units called pages), thrashing is a condition in which excessive paging operations are taking place.
Last edited by cwatters; 1st Jul 2005 at 16:34.
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I know that one particular Airline at LHR has stack monitors for the inbound holds so they can judge the holding times etc.
For anyone who doesn't know they show the ATC flight strips that the controllers use (Someone correct me if info incorrect!)
Could something like this be used for the delivery position, are they layed out in order of when an A/C is going to be released to push back? Only been up the tower once in my life and that was in 2000 so not quite sure if they are layed out so they could be shown on a monitor somewhere.
Basically the idea is that Airline Ops departments at LHR have a monitor that shows the strips and they could watch progress of flights and order the tugs etc at a relevent time.
Would any LHR ATCOs like to comment on whether this would work? Would it make a difference with the planned electronic flight strips in the new tower?
Does anyone think ATC would want to release this sort of information? I read about a Eurocontrol project looking at ATC sharing information with Airlines and there were some interesting ideas in there.
For anyone who doesn't know they show the ATC flight strips that the controllers use (Someone correct me if info incorrect!)
Could something like this be used for the delivery position, are they layed out in order of when an A/C is going to be released to push back? Only been up the tower once in my life and that was in 2000 so not quite sure if they are layed out so they could be shown on a monitor somewhere.
Basically the idea is that Airline Ops departments at LHR have a monitor that shows the strips and they could watch progress of flights and order the tugs etc at a relevent time.
Would any LHR ATCOs like to comment on whether this would work? Would it make a difference with the planned electronic flight strips in the new tower?
Does anyone think ATC would want to release this sort of information? I read about a Eurocontrol project looking at ATC sharing information with Airlines and there were some interesting ideas in there.
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It's technically possible I guess. However, who would pay for it?
As it stands at the moment we already get deluged by many operators phoning us to complain about us delaying startups. I'm not sure how keen LHR ATC would be to have to field calls such as: "You let Air France push back, why not us?" etc etc.......
With our new electronic strip system coming in the medium term, the airport environment as a whole is aiming towards 'Collaborative Decision Management', where all agencies have access to all pertinent information; delays, de-icing, tugs etc would all be in there.
As it stands at the moment we already get deluged by many operators phoning us to complain about us delaying startups. I'm not sure how keen LHR ATC would be to have to field calls such as: "You let Air France push back, why not us?" etc etc.......
With our new electronic strip system coming in the medium term, the airport environment as a whole is aiming towards 'Collaborative Decision Management', where all agencies have access to all pertinent information; delays, de-icing, tugs etc would all be in there.
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As a professional (how pompous is that?) it still smarts that I have to claim to have a tug in order to get a tug – sometimes. It’s a gamble, and when you get push clearance and you tug has bu99ered off, or not turned up, then you are the d1ck.
Don’t like it. There is too much other stuff to be dealing with.
However………….
LHR ATC there are no finer controllers in the world. Period.
Had to hold too often because president xxxxxxxev of Azerbaijan is within 50K of the airfield and if you didn’t arrive with 40 mins holding – tough. Amateur operations are the norm all to often at ‘the other end’.
LHR info structure busting at the seams, T5 completion eagerly awaited. In the mean time, lets all keep a sense of humour.
Bish (after too much real ale)
Don’t like it. There is too much other stuff to be dealing with.
However………….
LHR ATC there are no finer controllers in the world. Period.
Had to hold too often because president xxxxxxxev of Azerbaijan is within 50K of the airfield and if you didn’t arrive with 40 mins holding – tough. Amateur operations are the norm all to often at ‘the other end’.
LHR info structure busting at the seams, T5 completion eagerly awaited. In the mean time, lets all keep a sense of humour.
Bish (after too much real ale)
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If ATC could as the rule rather than the exception advise how long until push back in these delay situations, then this would give the handling companies time to send the tugs to the correct a/c, but would doing this mean much more work for ATC ?.
Also we in "company" are able to choose which a/c we want prioritising for p/back if 2 a/c are due off at roughly the same time and using same tug - we don't just pick one for the hell of it though, we look at multiple other factors first when making the decision.
But ultimately, Communication is the word - ATC advises F/deck of estimated push time, F/deck then advise Company/handling agent who can then better use the resources they have to ensure everyone is happy.
Simple really.
Also we in "company" are able to choose which a/c we want prioritising for p/back if 2 a/c are due off at roughly the same time and using same tug - we don't just pick one for the hell of it though, we look at multiple other factors first when making the decision.
But ultimately, Communication is the word - ATC advises F/deck of estimated push time, F/deck then advise Company/handling agent who can then better use the resources they have to ensure everyone is happy.
Simple really.
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Don't know what it's like now, but (according to the dispatcher I was talking to) a couple of months ago 75% of BA tug drivers were working at least one overtime shift a week to keep the operation going...