Do Pilots make good Managers?
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Do Pilots make good Managers?
We have all been there, confronted by a Management Pilot who has NEVER done any thing else other than fly. Promoted and became a Manager. How many companies send them on courses that would help these inexperienced individuals do their job correctly?
hassel
this is also on A/C Notes but it does effect our everyday lives!
hassel
this is also on A/C Notes but it does effect our everyday lives!
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Just a thought or two:
Surely pilots ARE managers. Or at least good pilots are good managers.
I've met inept airline managers but I've also met (and flown with) inept pilots.
I guess it takes all sorts. 'Tis the nature of this world we live in, don't you think.
Surely pilots ARE managers. Or at least good pilots are good managers.
I've met inept airline managers but I've also met (and flown with) inept pilots.
I guess it takes all sorts. 'Tis the nature of this world we live in, don't you think.
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Oh boy this is going to be a good one. Every know and then somebody posts a corker and this is really going to stir it up.
I can't resist commenting. I think (believe, opinion etc etc) the answer is that the two aren't directly related. I think flight deck skills are basically technically based skills. Management skills tend to be people based skills. But both fields require the ability to think laterally (in huge amounts).
Somebody who has the drive and commitment to make it to the flight deck (and stay there) would probably make a better manager than somebody who has stayed in an unskilled job but that dosen't make the pilot a good manager automatically, and visa versa.
I was a manager of about 80 people in a technical environment before I changed to flying as a career so I have been on the 'sharp end' and it is very hard for somebody to see how difficult it can be to juggle the emotions and needs of a large number of people while keeping the wolves at bay unless you really try it for a few years. I did a reasonale job but never found it easy. I do feel for anyone in a job like fleet manager (which would probably equate to the position I held in terms of responsibility).
However, the real juicy debate here is how many pilots have completely hoofed up in management roles and how many 'civilians' have done a good job. And, can we draw any conclusions from the stats? Are flying skills a prerequisite to manage flyers?
[This message has been edited by Bomber Harris (edited 14 June 2001).]
I can't resist commenting. I think (believe, opinion etc etc) the answer is that the two aren't directly related. I think flight deck skills are basically technically based skills. Management skills tend to be people based skills. But both fields require the ability to think laterally (in huge amounts).
Somebody who has the drive and commitment to make it to the flight deck (and stay there) would probably make a better manager than somebody who has stayed in an unskilled job but that dosen't make the pilot a good manager automatically, and visa versa.
I was a manager of about 80 people in a technical environment before I changed to flying as a career so I have been on the 'sharp end' and it is very hard for somebody to see how difficult it can be to juggle the emotions and needs of a large number of people while keeping the wolves at bay unless you really try it for a few years. I did a reasonale job but never found it easy. I do feel for anyone in a job like fleet manager (which would probably equate to the position I held in terms of responsibility).
However, the real juicy debate here is how many pilots have completely hoofed up in management roles and how many 'civilians' have done a good job. And, can we draw any conclusions from the stats? Are flying skills a prerequisite to manage flyers?
[This message has been edited by Bomber Harris (edited 14 June 2001).]
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There are many managers/CEOs who are/were pilot's but did not fly the line. IE Gordon Bethune rated on 767 and flies it occasionally but not on the line. Great airline and one of the few which made a profit. Frank Borman ran Eastern/Great astronaut but did not translate into CEO skills. Juan Trippe (PAN AM founder) was a pilot but had found his skills at developing the airline were more fulfilling (financially and otherwise). Niki Lauda-you decide.
Management is half common sense and half business sense. One you were born with and the other you learn or at least have the common sense to hire good people who do. Unfortunately, managers are not always hired for the business acumen but rather their political skill in getting the job. In the final analysis, the company culture comes from the top and he/she will be the model for all other managers.
Management is half common sense and half business sense. One you were born with and the other you learn or at least have the common sense to hire good people who do. Unfortunately, managers are not always hired for the business acumen but rather their political skill in getting the job. In the final analysis, the company culture comes from the top and he/she will be the model for all other managers.
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There are NO untrained or untested Professional Pilots.
There are plenty of untrained and untested Managers. If management is, as often mooted, an inate skill that supermen are born with, what are all the Management Colleges for?
In my not so humble opinion (excessive modesty and a shy retiring nature are my only faults) no-one should be in any managerial position unless they are qualified by both experience AND specific training.
So to answer the question: Yes, pilots who have the necessary personal qualities and have been given appropriate managerial training make good managers.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
There are plenty of untrained and untested Managers. If management is, as often mooted, an inate skill that supermen are born with, what are all the Management Colleges for?
In my not so humble opinion (excessive modesty and a shy retiring nature are my only faults) no-one should be in any managerial position unless they are qualified by both experience AND specific training.
So to answer the question: Yes, pilots who have the necessary personal qualities and have been given appropriate managerial training make good managers.
**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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Fully agree with Blacksheep, It's not because you have a 3 digit number in your company 'mediocrity list' or have thousands of hours that you'll make a good manager unless you've been trained for. Air Force pilots are much better educated as they have a mix of management duty and flying at the earliest stage of their career.
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Let's make a 360 and get out of here_...Left or right Sir?
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Let's make a 360 and get out of here_...Left or right Sir?
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Never really understood why they have to be trainers - or is it simply they can wield the big stick in the simulator!
If you can't do it - Teach it
If you can't teach it - Manage it
If you can't manage it - Buy the Airline
Seriously there are good Pilot managers - however like most things there is a 30% w@n*er factor. The real problems occur when the 30% meet the 30%!!!
If you can't do it - Teach it
If you can't teach it - Manage it
If you can't manage it - Buy the Airline
Seriously there are good Pilot managers - however like most things there is a 30% w@n*er factor. The real problems occur when the 30% meet the 30%!!!
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go to www.atsb.gov.au for the report into the Qantas Bangkok accident. Says a few unkind words about pilot managers.
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We all know that common sense isn't terribly common and it certainly is not a sense. As pilots, we all tend to rely on our inate abilities to see, assess and take corrective action. All too often, our managers (leaders)are too busy trying to figure out why our customer is choked about something rather than standing back, qualitatively assessing the front line of company-customer interface and enacting some form of inter-personal corrective action. Too deep? Someone already mentioned the practice of hiring good people; what can we do about managers who hire good people then don't listen to them?
I've even seen it come to the point where we hire individuals solely because of their academic credentials, then try and turn them into pilots so they can speak the language.
We, as an aviation sector must work to create ways and means of identifying individuals whom we would like to work for, individuals we respect, we know respect us, and who will remain loyal to safe flight practices. These individuals if supported by the the troops should be recognized by senior management and promoted accordingly. Do pilots make good managers? Not naturally. If management would invest some effort and $$$ in first identifying potential leaders, then training them to meet both management's needs as well as those of the pilots he/she oversees, the returns would be overwhelming.
I've even seen it come to the point where we hire individuals solely because of their academic credentials, then try and turn them into pilots so they can speak the language.
We, as an aviation sector must work to create ways and means of identifying individuals whom we would like to work for, individuals we respect, we know respect us, and who will remain loyal to safe flight practices. These individuals if supported by the the troops should be recognized by senior management and promoted accordingly. Do pilots make good managers? Not naturally. If management would invest some effort and $$$ in first identifying potential leaders, then training them to meet both management's needs as well as those of the pilots he/she oversees, the returns would be overwhelming.
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I agree with Blacksheep on this one. You need experience of what you are managing before you can consider yourself a good manager. There are too many people in middle / senior management positions purely on the basis that they have been on the right management course. They always argue that if you are a good manager you don't need to know about the job but what do you do when someone approaches you with a technical question seeking an executive decision. I suppose you try and get across the alligator infested swamp with a flip chart and a biro!!!
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I've no direct experience of this in the aviation sphere, but the question applies in a lot of professions. Mine is IT, and the normal career path is to progress through the ranks of the technical people, then move into management. However it is often glaringly obvious that a good technician doesn't always make a good manager, and it has always seemed a little odd to me that anyone should think that they would. After all you only have to look at the number of IT startup companies (usually run by technical people as they have the initial ideas) that go bust in the first 3 years! The big problem I think is that it is unusual for someone to have a career solely as a manager and so to become one they have to (in theory at least) prove themselves as competent at another job first - pilot, IT techie or whatever. The biggest argument against this idea is that many of you will say that a manager needs to prove himself competent at doing what his underlings are doing first.However the abuse heaped on many airline managers in these forums, a lot of whom appear to have come through the ranks, would appear to nail that argument!
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Pilots are little more than overpayed bus drivers with wings; or in case of freighter pilots, overpayed truck drivers with wings.
It's a no brainer job, with so little to do and to think that one's mind takes a walk from TOC to DOD. Pilot Managers? Make us laugh.
It's a no brainer job, with so little to do and to think that one's mind takes a walk from TOC to DOD. Pilot Managers? Make us laugh.
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Glueball
This is essentially a professional pilots' forum. Others, according to our esteemed site owner, are most welcome, though I doubt that still holds true with those who show themselves to be either totally unprofessional pilots or just plain jealous of those of us who are.
Regardless of which of these two alternatives is an accurate description of your good self, I respectfully suggest you place your jaundiced opinion firmly up your fundamental orifice and bog off elsewhere PDQ -- else our skipper and his team will have your guts for garters!
This is essentially a professional pilots' forum. Others, according to our esteemed site owner, are most welcome, though I doubt that still holds true with those who show themselves to be either totally unprofessional pilots or just plain jealous of those of us who are.
Regardless of which of these two alternatives is an accurate description of your good self, I respectfully suggest you place your jaundiced opinion firmly up your fundamental orifice and bog off elsewhere PDQ -- else our skipper and his team will have your guts for garters!
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An interesting debate which rather echoes one that is well known to Scientists and Engineers.
As a general rule, management is part of the Engineers training, and I've worked for few qualified Engineers who weren't also good managers. Scientists (and I've worked with or for a few of them too) often get promoted to management on the basis of their scientific acumen - and then usually make a complete hash of it. Those who have made good manager tend to have gone off and done some management training / got some experience elsewhere / really been a closet Engineer.
I'd suggest the same is true for pilots. Take somebody who has known nothing but the flight deck and put them in charge and you've probably got a disaster on your hands. But, give them opportunities to develop management skills and well, they're bright chaps, I'm sure they'll do quite well. Somebody manages to keep the RAF running after-all, and since they refuse to promote Engineers to Air rank, the master race must learn something somewhere.
G
As a general rule, management is part of the Engineers training, and I've worked for few qualified Engineers who weren't also good managers. Scientists (and I've worked with or for a few of them too) often get promoted to management on the basis of their scientific acumen - and then usually make a complete hash of it. Those who have made good manager tend to have gone off and done some management training / got some experience elsewhere / really been a closet Engineer.
I'd suggest the same is true for pilots. Take somebody who has known nothing but the flight deck and put them in charge and you've probably got a disaster on your hands. But, give them opportunities to develop management skills and well, they're bright chaps, I'm sure they'll do quite well. Somebody manages to keep the RAF running after-all, and since they refuse to promote Engineers to Air rank, the master race must learn something somewhere.
G
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The best manager in football at the moment was a distinctly average player. Management is a combination of skills, knowledge, personality, experience, and luck. I was once informed that a successful manager was one who made the correct decision 51% of the time.
Oh, and I am talking about Alex Ferguson!!
Oh, and I am talking about Alex Ferguson!!
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Glueball, for a first post that's a remarkably silly one (unless, as I suspect, you're a troll..). Although PPRuNe is primarily orientated towards professional pilots there are a fair number of non-pilots, attracted by a love of aviation and by the many interesting discussions here. Apart from the more highly specialised threads, most of the more general topics such as this one illustrate problems and difficulties that are almost universal in application. From these I learn a lot and occasionally contribute a little. Formal CRM, for instance, is never either practiced or taught in my profession - through PPRuNe I have been led to realise this failure and to start implementing CRM in my unit.
Few real cutting surgeons make good managers. If they are charismatic they can often weld together remarkable small teams, but they tend (with exceptions) to make poor general managers. The reasons are probably that we tend to have a low tolerance of endless indecisive committee meetings and are bored by administrative minutiae. Those who are good at management and enjoy such bureaucratic cut-and-thrust usually end up operating less and less as they attend more and more meetings. As time goes by they then become increasingly out of touch, out of practice and (perversely) increasingly dogmatic about procedures that they no longer perform. And of course, those who were never really happy with the knife tend to become administrators anyway.
Can good management be taught? Well, maybe principles can, but real, big management needs patience, empathy, determination and good people skills that are qualitatively different from those required to captain a small tight group.
A most interesting topic with good comments so far.
Few real cutting surgeons make good managers. If they are charismatic they can often weld together remarkable small teams, but they tend (with exceptions) to make poor general managers. The reasons are probably that we tend to have a low tolerance of endless indecisive committee meetings and are bored by administrative minutiae. Those who are good at management and enjoy such bureaucratic cut-and-thrust usually end up operating less and less as they attend more and more meetings. As time goes by they then become increasingly out of touch, out of practice and (perversely) increasingly dogmatic about procedures that they no longer perform. And of course, those who were never really happy with the knife tend to become administrators anyway.
Can good management be taught? Well, maybe principles can, but real, big management needs patience, empathy, determination and good people skills that are qualitatively different from those required to captain a small tight group.
A most interesting topic with good comments so far.