too hot to handle
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too hot to handle
Latest news on BA site re LHR mess today states:
Flight disruption at Heathrow and Gatwick, 19 June
Summary
Due to hot weather, a number of British Airways flights have been disrupted in to and out of London Heathrow and Gatwick:
If you are travelling today, we recommend that you check the status of your flight using our online arrivals and departures system.
A number of flights or the majority?
Flight disruption at Heathrow and Gatwick, 19 June
Summary
Due to hot weather, a number of British Airways flights have been disrupted in to and out of London Heathrow and Gatwick:
If you are travelling today, we recommend that you check the status of your flight using our online arrivals and departures system.
A number of flights or the majority?
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Lots of problems with APUs and a lack of ground A/C - just like last year and the year before....
BA, the CAA or the HSE have yet to issue any advice regarding maximum onboard temperatures (heads buried in the sand). I've seen 38C down the back on a 744. I suppose that they're just waiting until somebody dies!!!
BA, the CAA or the HSE have yet to issue any advice regarding maximum onboard temperatures (heads buried in the sand). I've seen 38C down the back on a 744. I suppose that they're just waiting until somebody dies!!!
Only half a speed-brake
How can you tell the summer has arrived?
Well, suppose there are two charter configured machines recently acquired for the very purpose. So at first, the second one goes tech with a rather serious undercarriage/wingspar problem for 8 weeks and and a week later the first one's APU collapses so that all the Greek Islands holiday makers can feel a real warm welcome or hot farewell....
No time to repair, of course.
No time to repair, of course.
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LHR 19 jun
I can't believe there is no mention of the chaos that ensued at LHR yesterday with outbound departures delayed 3-5 hours, flight cancellations, and crews being kept 'out of the information loop' with regard to slot delays and departures.
There were aircraft scattered aroudn the taxiways trying to get away, and we actually taxied for 1hr 15 mins after a 2 hour delay...
The (supposed) reasons given were - problems at Swanwick - both manpower and equipment, though no-one would elaborate, a possible gound collison between 2 a/c and very poor updating ...
On the hottest day of the year so far (Approx 35c), this caused huge frustration for the passengers and crew that were implicated and no real reasons have yet to surface . . . . anybody care to enlighten ?! ....
There were still departures after Midnight and i believe many aircraft were affected - god help anybody who had an U/S APU...
There were aircraft scattered aroudn the taxiways trying to get away, and we actually taxied for 1hr 15 mins after a 2 hour delay...
The (supposed) reasons given were - problems at Swanwick - both manpower and equipment, though no-one would elaborate, a possible gound collison between 2 a/c and very poor updating ...
On the hottest day of the year so far (Approx 35c), this caused huge frustration for the passengers and crew that were implicated and no real reasons have yet to surface . . . . anybody care to enlighten ?! ....
There were still departures after Midnight and i believe many aircraft were affected - god help anybody who had an U/S APU...
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wasn't working yesterday but popped in to catch up on things, there was an awful lot of nasty thunderstorms about. this can cause a massive increase in workload and possibly flow restrictions, however i'm just guessing. Sorry you were kept in the dark,maybe your ops knows more.
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Well, I did 4 flights in and out and didn't see one CB south of Luton or East of Swindon. But it took me 40 minutes to taxy out on the first flight, and 30 minutes to get a stand on the way back in, and 50 minutes to get start clearance on the third flight (not to mention 50 minutes to get refuelled and 35 minutes to get baggage handling).
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Not just Lhr, there were slot delays all day yesterday from Stn but they were in the order of 30-45 mins only. The BBC were blaming the telephone system at Swanwick!
Cheers,
mcdhu
Cheers,
mcdhu
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Same Slot delays at LGW. Although we were told it was a EuroControl Computer problem! Not sure where that came from; I wonder what the real answer is? 
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Had an hour slot delay out of NCL at 14:30 yesterday and was told by the Dispatcher that it was due to industrial action by ATC somewhere (she didn't know where).
Whilst dodging the thunderstorms, we speculated about what foreign country this action might have been in (I'm sure we'd have known if it had been in the UK) and how such action would cause a knock-on effect to a NCL-LGW.
On contacting the company inbound to LGW, the radio operator asked about how the thunderstorms were up north, and alluded to a difficult day as if they had caused all the problems. There wasn't a single CB in sight south of Brum.
Still none the wiser. Funny old game, eh?
Whilst dodging the thunderstorms, we speculated about what foreign country this action might have been in (I'm sure we'd have known if it had been in the UK) and how such action would cause a knock-on effect to a NCL-LGW.
On contacting the company inbound to LGW, the radio operator asked about how the thunderstorms were up north, and alluded to a difficult day as if they had caused all the problems. There wasn't a single CB in sight south of Brum.
Still none the wiser. Funny old game, eh?
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June 20, 2005
Flights from British airports returned to normal on Monday after a problem with air traffic control's telephones and severe storms delayed some flights from London by up to three hours over the weekend.
Authorities and airlines blamed a bottleneck at London's Heathrow Airport on a problem with the phones at National Air Traffic Services' (NATS) control centre at Swanwick, southern England, on Sunday.
The problem was compounded by heavy storms in Britain's north and an aircraft which blocked the runway at Heathrow for 40 minutes.
"It was a small glitch with the telephones at Swanwick which imposed some flow restrictions in the morning... the impact was quite minimal," a NATS spokeswoman said.
However, airlines said flights were delayed up to three hours. Some passengers reported long delays on the tarmac at Heathrow while waiting for a backlog of disembarking passengers to clear.
A British Airways spokeswoman said it cancelled 16 flights and reported "a lot" of delays. Flights had returned to normal by Monday.
NATS denied a media report the delay was caused by a computer malfunction.
British airports were thrown into chaos a year ago when a computer failure briefly grounded all aircraft in Britain at peak time in the morning.
NATS, 49 percent owned by the British government, is closing down its operation centre near Heathrow to transfer operations to an enlarged base at Swanwick as part of a GBP£1 billion (USD$1.83 billion) modernization.
(Reuters)
Flights from British airports returned to normal on Monday after a problem with air traffic control's telephones and severe storms delayed some flights from London by up to three hours over the weekend.
Authorities and airlines blamed a bottleneck at London's Heathrow Airport on a problem with the phones at National Air Traffic Services' (NATS) control centre at Swanwick, southern England, on Sunday.
The problem was compounded by heavy storms in Britain's north and an aircraft which blocked the runway at Heathrow for 40 minutes.
"It was a small glitch with the telephones at Swanwick which imposed some flow restrictions in the morning... the impact was quite minimal," a NATS spokeswoman said.
However, airlines said flights were delayed up to three hours. Some passengers reported long delays on the tarmac at Heathrow while waiting for a backlog of disembarking passengers to clear.
A British Airways spokeswoman said it cancelled 16 flights and reported "a lot" of delays. Flights had returned to normal by Monday.
NATS denied a media report the delay was caused by a computer malfunction.
British airports were thrown into chaos a year ago when a computer failure briefly grounded all aircraft in Britain at peak time in the morning.
NATS, 49 percent owned by the British government, is closing down its operation centre near Heathrow to transfer operations to an enlarged base at Swanwick as part of a GBP£1 billion (USD$1.83 billion) modernization.
(Reuters)
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Looks like there is a huge cover up of some sort going on here. I was due to depart MAN at 1710Z out to the East. We were delayed 1 hour. Flights wanting to depart to the South were facing undetermined delays. They were also being told it was not advisable to refile as the system could not cope. The reason being given for the whole fiasco was bad weather over the whole of the UK! It seems from other posts that the South was not suffering bad weather at all and when I did eventually get airbourne, the weather out to the East was not exactly challenging to deal with either. Despite the fact that it was already well clear to the West, westbound delays were also very long.
It was absolute chaos on the ground at MAN and we were obviously being fed lies abvout the reason for it.
It was absolute chaos on the ground at MAN and we were obviously being fed lies abvout the reason for it.
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Tight Circuit
If you did not know what was going on how did you know you were being told lies!!!
We in ATC DO NOT NEED TO TELL TO LIES we try are best to keep every body happy
I assume when you next need a bit of flexibility on a tight slot you would be happy for a few white lies to be told
Also go to the ATC forum, at least our efforts were appreciated by other aircrew apart from yourself
Finally its a big sky outside your small little office
If you did not know what was going on how did you know you were being told lies!!!
We in ATC DO NOT NEED TO TELL TO LIES we try are best to keep every body happy
I assume when you next need a bit of flexibility on a tight slot you would be happy for a few white lies to be told
Also go to the ATC forum, at least our efforts were appreciated by other aircrew apart from yourself
Finally its a big sky outside your small little office
Last edited by opnot; 20th Jun 2005 at 21:02.
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Oops sorry opnot,
I didn't mean to imply that individual controllers were telling porkies. I am sure the controllers believed what they were telling us. It just looks to me as though the weather was being given from elsewhere as the whole reason for the chaos when it was possibly only a contributary factor.
Sorry if I caused offence, its a bit of a snag when using this medium!
I didn't mean to imply that individual controllers were telling porkies. I am sure the controllers believed what they were telling us. It just looks to me as though the weather was being given from elsewhere as the whole reason for the chaos when it was possibly only a contributary factor.
Sorry if I caused offence, its a bit of a snag when using this medium!
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tight circuit no need to be too contrite. A lot of the delays were caused by a telephone fault at swanwick,certainly in the morning. As for lies being told well hey Nats are a privatised company now so what do you expect. When I sit on a BA/Ryanair/easyjet flight that has been delayed due late passengers and hear the skipper telling me it is due atc delay I am not gullible enough to think I am being told the whole truth. As controllers we do our very best to minimise delays but when one telephone fault can cause such delays you have to really ask questions about the integrity of the system. It would appear that very little redundancy is in place for such problems. I would love to hear from a systems person in NATS as to what happened.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I was told that the consoles at Swanwick were stuck in an "early morning" low flow mode. Apparently as the day gets more busy, these consoles are switched to "high flow" to deal with the traffic but they wouldn't switch. Therefore lots of slot delays so ATC can manage the traffic with the tools available.
It was interesting sitting on the ground at LGW watching loads of a/c nudging around from place to place as stands became free. The MyTravel A330 must have sat on "J" for at least 45 minutes after landing - nice if you've just come across the pond!
Made a long day even longer. But that's life.
A4
It was interesting sitting on the ground at LGW watching loads of a/c nudging around from place to place as stands became free. The MyTravel A330 must have sat on "J" for at least 45 minutes after landing - nice if you've just come across the pond!
Made a long day even longer. But that's life.
A4
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A4:
High Flow and Low Flow: Oh that would be nice if we could flick a switch like that! But I'm afraid it's a little more mundane.
The consoles at Swanwick are all generic: it is the software which puts a certain sector on a certain position. As traffic volumes decrease at night, we will gradually put sectors together (called 'bandboxing' in the UK and 'collapsing' at some other centres). This involves telling the software to combine certain sectors on certain consoles. In the dead of night, the 24 or so sectors we are able to open during the day are bandboxed into 5 consoles. As traffic starts to increase during the early morning, we tell the software to 'split' these sectors apart and electronically put them on certain consoles ready for the start of the morning shift. They can then be split further as traffic increases.
If the software fails to play ball, we can be left with a situation where we are unable to split the sectors into as many as we would like/need to handle the traffic. Thus there have to be slots issued to prevent overload of the controllers. Only when the software comes back into line can we then open up the necessary sectors.
I don't know whether this was what occured the other day, but it sounds feasible.
High Flow and Low Flow: Oh that would be nice if we could flick a switch like that! But I'm afraid it's a little more mundane.
The consoles at Swanwick are all generic: it is the software which puts a certain sector on a certain position. As traffic volumes decrease at night, we will gradually put sectors together (called 'bandboxing' in the UK and 'collapsing' at some other centres). This involves telling the software to combine certain sectors on certain consoles. In the dead of night, the 24 or so sectors we are able to open during the day are bandboxed into 5 consoles. As traffic starts to increase during the early morning, we tell the software to 'split' these sectors apart and electronically put them on certain consoles ready for the start of the morning shift. They can then be split further as traffic increases.
If the software fails to play ball, we can be left with a situation where we are unable to split the sectors into as many as we would like/need to handle the traffic. Thus there have to be slots issued to prevent overload of the controllers. Only when the software comes back into line can we then open up the necessary sectors.
I don't know whether this was what occured the other day, but it sounds feasible.
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Being one of the ATCO's who was working EGLL tower on sunday I can say it was just as bad a day for us as it was for you lot on the flight decks, though some of the figures being talked about here are way off the mark.
Firstly, the worst delay for startup clearance was about an hour, to an hour and a half at the very worst, not the 3-5 hours mentioned earlier.
Secondly, the reuters report that the runway was blocked for about 40 minutes by an aircraft is incorrect as well. I was the controller doing departures when I was told that a singapore B744 at the front of the hold at HORKA was venting fuel (a not uncommon problem with high temperatures apparently!!) so he had to be visited by the fire service. Problem with that was that he had already started taxiing past HORKA before I was informed and colud stop him, and given that the a/c at OSTER was a virgin A340 there wasn't much chance of squeezing him through, effectively blocking both holding points. It was then simply a case of getting people away from N7, but the runway was never blocked...at least not when I was working!!!
It didn't help when the singapore came back out a while later to try again and started venting again!!!
We were told that it was a problem with the phone lines at swanwick, although I'm not sure as to exactly how that should cause the delays seen.
There was also no ground collision between aircraft either so thats also incorrect.
What was also a problem was the tug factor. Aircraft were reporting ready and were being told there was about 60 mins delay. They were then telling their tug crew this who would detach and go elsewhere, problem was, I had put them in the startup queue. When the tug crew arrived at another departure, they would then call ready, only to be told 60 mins delay!! You can probably spot the pattern. Anyway, when the aircraft that had initially called ready made it to the front of the queue (eventually!!) i was trying to start him, only to be told he no longer had a tug!! And so to the next in the queue...same story with him.
There was also a problem later on with weather in the north as has been mentioned, and we tried as best we could to stick to these slots, but to be honest, most slot adherence went right out the window on sunday, with a preferential system of minimum departure intervals.
So there you go folks. No massive cover up. Just a series of unfortunate links in a chain, which with the volume of traffic and lack of groundspace at heathrow tends to have a habit of snowballing into a massive headache.
FB
Firstly, the worst delay for startup clearance was about an hour, to an hour and a half at the very worst, not the 3-5 hours mentioned earlier.
Secondly, the reuters report that the runway was blocked for about 40 minutes by an aircraft is incorrect as well. I was the controller doing departures when I was told that a singapore B744 at the front of the hold at HORKA was venting fuel (a not uncommon problem with high temperatures apparently!!) so he had to be visited by the fire service. Problem with that was that he had already started taxiing past HORKA before I was informed and colud stop him, and given that the a/c at OSTER was a virgin A340 there wasn't much chance of squeezing him through, effectively blocking both holding points. It was then simply a case of getting people away from N7, but the runway was never blocked...at least not when I was working!!!
It didn't help when the singapore came back out a while later to try again and started venting again!!!We were told that it was a problem with the phone lines at swanwick, although I'm not sure as to exactly how that should cause the delays seen.
There was also no ground collision between aircraft either so thats also incorrect.
What was also a problem was the tug factor. Aircraft were reporting ready and were being told there was about 60 mins delay. They were then telling their tug crew this who would detach and go elsewhere, problem was, I had put them in the startup queue. When the tug crew arrived at another departure, they would then call ready, only to be told 60 mins delay!! You can probably spot the pattern. Anyway, when the aircraft that had initially called ready made it to the front of the queue (eventually!!) i was trying to start him, only to be told he no longer had a tug!! And so to the next in the queue...same story with him.
There was also a problem later on with weather in the north as has been mentioned, and we tried as best we could to stick to these slots, but to be honest, most slot adherence went right out the window on sunday, with a preferential system of minimum departure intervals.
So there you go folks. No massive cover up. Just a series of unfortunate links in a chain, which with the volume of traffic and lack of groundspace at heathrow tends to have a habit of snowballing into a massive headache.
FB