British Mediterranean Airways flight intercepted over the Netherlands
More than just an ATCO
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Top Bunk Maastricht has the capability to send such messages and a/c euipped to receive it are so indicated by the system.
Farmer1 Two or three controllers per sector at Maastricht depending on traffic levels. Unassumed traffic, i.e. traffic in or about to enter your sector but not yet in contact, flashes. When in contact an Ässume"input is made which increases the brightness of track and label information, also co-ordination info is then displayed.
It is, of course, possible to "assume in error" as this is all done by mouse clicks on a 3 button mouse (due to stupidity and damaged nerves in right hand I was forever doing this) and then theprevious sector believes the flight was transferred until too late and he is out of range, however another a/c can be used to relay a message. This doesn't happen too often as most flights require some vectoring or level change in Maastricht Airspace. That said, and looking at dep. and dest. there is a possibility that the flight had been re-routed by flow control to avoid Belgium, but was still given a shorter than normal routing along the Belgian Dutch border and each sector believed he was working the other. Not very likely though.
Hope this helps, all a bit vague, as I'm no longer working there.
Farmer1 Two or three controllers per sector at Maastricht depending on traffic levels. Unassumed traffic, i.e. traffic in or about to enter your sector but not yet in contact, flashes. When in contact an Ässume"input is made which increases the brightness of track and label information, also co-ordination info is then displayed.
It is, of course, possible to "assume in error" as this is all done by mouse clicks on a 3 button mouse (due to stupidity and damaged nerves in right hand I was forever doing this) and then theprevious sector believes the flight was transferred until too late and he is out of range, however another a/c can be used to relay a message. This doesn't happen too often as most flights require some vectoring or level change in Maastricht Airspace. That said, and looking at dep. and dest. there is a possibility that the flight had been re-routed by flow control to avoid Belgium, but was still given a shorter than normal routing along the Belgian Dutch border and each sector believed he was working the other. Not very likely though.
Hope this helps, all a bit vague, as I'm no longer working there.
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TopBunk
Your idea about ACARS communication is valid. However, unlike BA a/c, BMED's airbii have their ATSU C/B pulled so that the ACARS is inoperative. Reason: cost saving?
Your idea about ACARS communication is valid. However, unlike BA a/c, BMED's airbii have their ATSU C/B pulled so that the ACARS is inoperative. Reason: cost saving?
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Preppy
Thanks for the info, however, I didn't say that it would have prevented this instance, just some of them. IMHO it is very sad that the bean counters interfere with sensible technological advances that could result in substantial benefit. Especially with BMeds network to more remote areas where volmet information is less widley available I would have thought that ACARS would prove most useful to the operation.
Thanks for the info, however, I didn't say that it would have prevented this instance, just some of them. IMHO it is very sad that the bean counters interfere with sensible technological advances that could result in substantial benefit. Especially with BMeds network to more remote areas where volmet information is less widley available I would have thought that ACARS would prove most useful to the operation.
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realistic concern
this thread gives the opportunity for me to ask others what they really think about the non-com procedures we find in the Jepp manuals.
i fly out of STN and from time to time i actually read the emergency sections and each time i come away with a feeling of hopelessness. not only is there a general section that gives ICAO things to do, but each country has it's own section which is further divided into individual airport/area procedures. to try to remember all these different emergency procedures is a real test, and to imagine trying to read and do in a real situation gives me the heebiejeebies.
after reading that section, i wished that each aircraft had a minimum of sixteen different com radios, each with it's own independent power source and antenna.
are your books just as complicated?
cheers;
i fly out of STN and from time to time i actually read the emergency sections and each time i come away with a feeling of hopelessness. not only is there a general section that gives ICAO things to do, but each country has it's own section which is further divided into individual airport/area procedures. to try to remember all these different emergency procedures is a real test, and to imagine trying to read and do in a real situation gives me the heebiejeebies.
after reading that section, i wished that each aircraft had a minimum of sixteen different com radios, each with it's own independent power source and antenna.
are your books just as complicated?
cheers;
Last edited by stator vane; 1st Jun 2005 at 17:11.
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Re the 'languge bashing' the person who said "Dutch, not so much a language, more a throat disease" was John Cleese.
Perhaps he wasn't being entirely serious.
Helaas, Pinderkaas.
Perhaps he wasn't being entirely serious.
Helaas, Pinderkaas.
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Almost everytime I fly over Switzerland I get intercepted by F-18's. The pax enjoy it, and I get some new photos. The lead pilot waves and departs.
What's the big deal?
This is excellent training for the Air Defense pilots. The more training the better.
Check 6
What's the big deal?
This is excellent training for the Air Defense pilots. The more training the better.
Check 6
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How about a functional flight monitoring system where the airline would have a qualified, trained flight dispatcher with a separate communication system that can contact the aircraft with SELCAL and/or ACARS along with an aircraft situation display that shows the position of the aircraft as it proceeds? If ATC loses contact, then this system could be used to confirm the aircraft's position and have the crew contact ATC. It would avoid situations like this as well as provide the crew with much better information regarding weather, atc, notams, etc, while the flight is enroute. It is terrible that ACARS is turned off.
If you remember, a similar but worse situation happened last year with Air Europa from Norway to Spain where no less than 6 interceptors (3 sets of 2 aircraft each from 3 different countries) were scrambled to find the aircraft after it was lost by ATC.
The truth is that when this happens, not only ATC doesn't know what is happening but neither does the airline.
Each airline should have its own flight monitoring and communication system to support the crews properly. They should know where their aircraft are and have a system to contact them.
If you remember, a similar but worse situation happened last year with Air Europa from Norway to Spain where no less than 6 interceptors (3 sets of 2 aircraft each from 3 different countries) were scrambled to find the aircraft after it was lost by ATC.
The truth is that when this happens, not only ATC doesn't know what is happening but neither does the airline.
Each airline should have its own flight monitoring and communication system to support the crews properly. They should know where their aircraft are and have a system to contact them.
Combine Operations
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Big Deal
This IS a big deal, chaps.
Having fighters come up, giving you a friendly wave and letting you take a few pickies is one thing, but having them come up looking for trouble, safety catches off, is another. These are military persons, working to a different set of rules from yours, and having a different mindset. Part of their job description is shooting down aeroplanes. This is why, in my first post, I said it was fortunate the incident did not occur in USSR airspace. The Authorities there were a tad touchy about aircraft entering their airspace uninvited. They tended to shoot first and not bother with the questions afterwards.
I don't know what the answer is, but it starts with the bloke sitting up front being fully aware of the situation. If these interceptions are so common, do you ever have any warning, or do the fighters just appear alongside? Isn’t there a rule about minimum proximity? If this is rule is broken, isn’t an official report in order? If so, how many per day are filed?
A story I am assured is true: An RAF crew on a routine flight saw one of their colleagues ahead, and decided to carry out a mock attack on him. They followed the correct procedure to the letter, right up to the point where the pilot says, “Fire!”
And the pilot said, “Fire!”
Couldn’t happen again, though, could it?
Using the Swiss cheese analogy, I can’t help thinking we might be working with only three or four slices of the stuff.
We must never forget, safety is no accident.
Having fighters come up, giving you a friendly wave and letting you take a few pickies is one thing, but having them come up looking for trouble, safety catches off, is another. These are military persons, working to a different set of rules from yours, and having a different mindset. Part of their job description is shooting down aeroplanes. This is why, in my first post, I said it was fortunate the incident did not occur in USSR airspace. The Authorities there were a tad touchy about aircraft entering their airspace uninvited. They tended to shoot first and not bother with the questions afterwards.
I don't know what the answer is, but it starts with the bloke sitting up front being fully aware of the situation. If these interceptions are so common, do you ever have any warning, or do the fighters just appear alongside? Isn’t there a rule about minimum proximity? If this is rule is broken, isn’t an official report in order? If so, how many per day are filed?
A story I am assured is true: An RAF crew on a routine flight saw one of their colleagues ahead, and decided to carry out a mock attack on him. They followed the correct procedure to the letter, right up to the point where the pilot says, “Fire!”
And the pilot said, “Fire!”
Couldn’t happen again, though, could it?
Using the Swiss cheese analogy, I can’t help thinking we might be working with only three or four slices of the stuff.
We must never forget, safety is no accident.
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I'm not sure if this is the right place for this; but if a formation of our F16s (or your Tornados, for that matter) is scrambled to intercept an airliner, do they use a civilian squawk?
I suppose they could do this to be visible on the ATCOs screen and TCAS, or perhaps on the other hand it's better not to in case there really are bad guys up front who might get twitchy if they get a TCAS alert for two blips closing in fast.
I guess I've just answered my own question
, but is there someone on here who can provide some insight into this?
I suppose they could do this to be visible on the ATCOs screen and TCAS, or perhaps on the other hand it's better not to in case there really are bad guys up front who might get twitchy if they get a TCAS alert for two blips closing in fast.
I guess I've just answered my own question
, but is there someone on here who can provide some insight into this?
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A friend was flying that day and apparently the Bmed was being repeatedly called on 121.5 without joy, when transferred to Maastricht it did get a bit of a telling off but maybe not as much as you'd expect considering it had just been intercepted by two F16's and hadn't noticed! Apparently the crew reported that they had been monitoring 121.5 only the volume had been turned down ( a little too much me thinks!)
Blu
Blu
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I really enjoy listening to 121.5. Yesterday I heard (what sounded to me like) a military controller asking an aircraft to identify itself and occasionally get to hear a PPL give a route broadcast that goes on for a minute or two...about the same length as the ribbing s/he gets from others monitoring the frequency. I also regularly hear a controller trying to contact some poor soul who has not dialed up the correct com frequency.
Check 6 How do you manage to get intercepted so much? I've flown in Swiss airspace quite a bit and have never seen a fighter or heard one. Usually, I'm looking out at the beautiful Alps so I do have my "eyes outside" a good deal of the time. Do you advise them you are happy to be intercepted or do you just turn your radio off so that you take some pics?
Cheers,
LP
Check 6 How do you manage to get intercepted so much? I've flown in Swiss airspace quite a bit and have never seen a fighter or heard one. Usually, I'm looking out at the beautiful Alps so I do have my "eyes outside" a good deal of the time. Do you advise them you are happy to be intercepted or do you just turn your radio off so that you take some pics?
Cheers,
LP
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LP, we are asked first by Swiss ATC if it would be OK to intercept us. It is very low key, with the lead pilot waving.
This is done for training on their part, and always a pleasure to form up with an F-18 on our part.
This is done for training on their part, and always a pleasure to form up with an F-18 on our part.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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In 'the good old days' one could add 'Embellish' on the remarks section of a UK flt plan and the AD dept would then be free to carry out a practice intercept.
This eventually was stopped rather severely after (at least) a couple of whoopsies, one involving a Viscount and one where a RAF Phantom shot down a RAF Jaguar, causing much beer to be bought by the Phantom squadron.
This eventually was stopped rather severely after (at least) a couple of whoopsies, one involving a Viscount and one where a RAF Phantom shot down a RAF Jaguar, causing much beer to be bought by the Phantom squadron.
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BOAC, that reminds me of a story that a friend told me. He was a US Marine Corps pilot in WWII, flying Corsairs out of the Solomon Islands in the S. Pacific.
A fighter that had the profile of a Japanese fighter flew by him, so he fired and shot it down. The other pilot sucessfully bailed out and was rescued.
The other pilot was an RAAF pilot. When my friend returned to base, he was met by the RAAF pilot. The rules were that my friend had to buy all of the drinks for awhile, so he did.
My friend is Colonel Jim Swett, Medal of Honor recipient.
You have to hear him tell the story. It is quite funny and I can not do it justice.
Check 6
A fighter that had the profile of a Japanese fighter flew by him, so he fired and shot it down. The other pilot sucessfully bailed out and was rescued.
The other pilot was an RAAF pilot. When my friend returned to base, he was met by the RAAF pilot. The rules were that my friend had to buy all of the drinks for awhile, so he did.
My friend is Colonel Jim Swett, Medal of Honor recipient.
You have to hear him tell the story. It is quite funny and I can not do it justice.
Check 6
I used to do it the other way round. When intercepting Russian Tu-95s, the Sun calendar held up in the left DV window of a VC10K had quite an interesting effect on the chaps in the Bear.
The best photo was of the exceptionally well-endowed Samantha Fox against a black background. When we showed the Ivans that, we used to get smiling faces in those leather Russian flying helmets appearing at every window!
Sam Fox probably doesn't know the part her parts played in the collapse of the Eastern Bloc!
The best photo was of the exceptionally well-endowed Samantha Fox against a black background. When we showed the Ivans that, we used to get smiling faces in those leather Russian flying helmets appearing at every window!
Sam Fox probably doesn't know the part her parts played in the collapse of the Eastern Bloc!
where a RAF Phantom shot down a RAF Jaguar
Combine Operations
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BEagle
I must admit, you worry me a tadge.
You say you used to do it the other way round - OK, in this modern era, we must forget our old prejudices and let sleeping dogs leave the manger before the stable door is bolted.
But, dash it all, there are standards to be maintained. When you registered with PPRuNe, did you admit that you were actually a SIZE=1]Sun[/SIZE] Reader?
After scrutinising your post with a comb of the finest teeth going, I could not actually quite reach double figures in finding errors of spelling, grammar etc.
So whom, exactly, did you persuade to do the writing for you?
You say you used to do it the other way round - OK, in this modern era, we must forget our old prejudices and let sleeping dogs leave the manger before the stable door is bolted.
But, dash it all, there are standards to be maintained. When you registered with PPRuNe, did you admit that you were actually a SIZE=1]Sun[/SIZE] Reader?
After scrutinising your post with a comb of the finest teeth going, I could not actually quite reach double figures in finding errors of spelling, grammar etc.
So whom, exactly, did you persuade to do the writing for you?