RTO At Schipol 26/05/05
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I agree with all the recent comments above and whilst my first post might not have been as clear as it should have been ( I had been up since 0130 that morning) at least it seems to have turned the discussion to a sensible and consensus view.
By the nature of the problems we are now considering, a split second decision will inevitably be required and because each is unique no drill or guidance will ever be provided. These situations are exactly the ones that we as aircrew are paid "high" salaries to deal with using our best judgement. I will emphasise again though, you need to be convinced that your a/c wont fly (or at least won't fly very far) to justify stopping above V1.
Cheers All
By the nature of the problems we are now considering, a split second decision will inevitably be required and because each is unique no drill or guidance will ever be provided. These situations are exactly the ones that we as aircrew are paid "high" salaries to deal with using our best judgement. I will emphasise again though, you need to be convinced that your a/c wont fly (or at least won't fly very far) to justify stopping above V1.
Cheers All
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According to my Take Off Safety Guide, most overruns happen during high speed aborts and the take off not being runway limited.
Plenty of runway, so no worries?
A great number of aborts happen with two engines producing full thrust.
I'm a CONTINUE pilot.
Plenty of runway, so no worries?
A great number of aborts happen with two engines producing full thrust.
I'm a CONTINUE pilot.
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Sims Fly Virtually
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V1 (Vr, V2)
Okay - I'm rusty as hell after some 20 years! I "thought' I remebered:
V1 - the point at which you can't stop before the end of the runway, taking into calculation the type, weight, runway length&condition, etc - the "Oh Shoot" point (wrong def?)
Vr - The point at which the nose will come up (rotate) and the aircraft can fly
V2 - "Burgered" if I can remember!
Perhaps someone would clarify for the benefit of those interested in the technicalities but not current flyers.
"By the Book" - I agree, the "book" has been around for many years, and seldom proved wrong, but we have seen cases where it has not "been adequate" (yes, sadly, the AF Conc is an example where "20/20 hindsight" suggests that the crew/pax would have had more chance with a badly-damaged burning plane ploughing into the mud/whatever at the end of the runway than a totally un-survivable conflagration situation 10 minutes later even if they had made it to another airfield. (RIP
)
I have always joked about "the LHS being fixed lower down to compensate for the extra padding in the skipper's derriere from his over-stuffed wallet", but, yes, it is a joke and I know these guys have my life in their hands every time fly an a/c. (Okay - they probably don't give a stuffed rat's @ss about my life, but they are the one who hit the ground first and hardest (who ever heard of an a/c reversing into a mountain??
I trust their own instincts for self-preservation to protect me 
(Although many-many years ago, when I was in Primary School, a V-bomber pilot "stayed with it" after his crew had "flown Martin Baker" to make sure the a/c stuffed into a recreation ground near the school and not into the school or houses nearby - God be with him)
You guys in the front of a heavy civil have an easy life most of the time, but when things start to go wrong, there's very little I can do back in the cabin. You are the ones "on the line", and, joking aside, deserve every penny you get (and more in some cases). I'd rather be in an a/c with a good, thinking, pilot, who read and understood "the book" than one controlled by "the book" and a computer
V1 - the point at which you can't stop before the end of the runway, taking into calculation the type, weight, runway length&condition, etc - the "Oh Shoot" point (wrong def?)
Vr - The point at which the nose will come up (rotate) and the aircraft can fly
V2 - "Burgered" if I can remember!
Perhaps someone would clarify for the benefit of those interested in the technicalities but not current flyers.
"By the Book" - I agree, the "book" has been around for many years, and seldom proved wrong, but we have seen cases where it has not "been adequate" (yes, sadly, the AF Conc is an example where "20/20 hindsight" suggests that the crew/pax would have had more chance with a badly-damaged burning plane ploughing into the mud/whatever at the end of the runway than a totally un-survivable conflagration situation 10 minutes later even if they had made it to another airfield. (RIP
)I have always joked about "the LHS being fixed lower down to compensate for the extra padding in the skipper's derriere from his over-stuffed wallet", but, yes, it is a joke and I know these guys have my life in their hands every time fly an a/c. (Okay - they probably don't give a stuffed rat's @ss about my life, but they are the one who hit the ground first and hardest (who ever heard of an a/c reversing into a mountain??
I trust their own instincts for self-preservation to protect me (Although many-many years ago, when I was in Primary School, a V-bomber pilot "stayed with it" after his crew had "flown Martin Baker" to make sure the a/c stuffed into a recreation ground near the school and not into the school or houses nearby - God be with him)
You guys in the front of a heavy civil have an easy life most of the time, but when things start to go wrong, there's very little I can do back in the cabin. You are the ones "on the line", and, joking aside, deserve every penny you get (and more in some cases). I'd rather be in an a/c with a good, thinking, pilot, who read and understood "the book" than one controlled by "the book" and a computer
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With the deepest of respect, and although I understand the importance of your conversation about the finer points of airliner operations, might I please wrestle back control of this thread?
Do I take it then that no one knows anything more about the Schipol incident?
Regards
ETC
Do I take it then that no one knows anything more about the Schipol incident?
Regards
ETC
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ESG -
- plenty of 'definitions' around on Pprune if you have a look, but it is worth bearing in mind that V1(STOP) may well be higher than Vr on an adequate runway, but for normal ops it is never higher than Vr for the reasons outlined above, since one does not aim to stop after lift-off. It does not mean you will be UNABLE to stop above V1, just that it is not the NORMAL procedure to do so. As pointed out above, a total engine failure, major cockpit fire or control failure leaves you with little choice. Taken to the ludicrous extreme of operating out of one of the US salt bed strips, some 10 miles long, I believe, then a 737 could do at least ?4? Take-offs (nosewheel off, stop and go again) and still have runway to spare. Whether it still had brakes, or the pilot had a job at the end, of course.....................
V1 - the point at which you can't stop before the end of the runway, taking into calculation the type, weight, runway length&condition, etc - the "Oh Shoot" point (wrong def?)
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guys and girls,
be very careful with "redefining" V1.
If you go against your company SOPs, your own simtraining, your a/c manufacturers' test pilots' collected and statistically computed performance figures, you will find yourself in very deep brown stuff.
Just because your r/w is 10miles long doesn't mean you will be able to stop!
Eg. have you thought of your brakes? They will have been cremated if not caught fire by the time you decelerated after having been faster than vr. The longest r/w on the planet won't be sufficient if you can't control the directional movement.
Let's not rush into rewriting the performance manuals on the t/o run.
The numbers are there for a reason, they are type, r/w and WAT specific.
also remember: v1 is calculated for the t/o roll for the r/w, the SE scenario then kicks in AT or above that speed ie. airborne, then, after that you can worry about v2 and your climbgradients!
Congratulations to everyone who put a plane back on the ground after vr in one piece, and of course you can always debate the decisions taken over a pint and at the end of the day you had to be there.
so: what I'm trying to say: It's not good for us to try to get absolution from fellow prooners for our own little emergency procedures stashed away in the backs of our heads!
bl hell, I sound like a manager!
be very careful with "redefining" V1.
If you go against your company SOPs, your own simtraining, your a/c manufacturers' test pilots' collected and statistically computed performance figures, you will find yourself in very deep brown stuff.
Just because your r/w is 10miles long doesn't mean you will be able to stop!
Eg. have you thought of your brakes? They will have been cremated if not caught fire by the time you decelerated after having been faster than vr. The longest r/w on the planet won't be sufficient if you can't control the directional movement.
Let's not rush into rewriting the performance manuals on the t/o run.
The numbers are there for a reason, they are type, r/w and WAT specific.
also remember: v1 is calculated for the t/o roll for the r/w, the SE scenario then kicks in AT or above that speed ie. airborne, then, after that you can worry about v2 and your climbgradients!
Congratulations to everyone who put a plane back on the ground after vr in one piece, and of course you can always debate the decisions taken over a pint and at the end of the day you had to be there.
so: what I'm trying to say: It's not good for us to try to get absolution from fellow prooners for our own little emergency procedures stashed away in the backs of our heads!
bl hell, I sound like a manager!
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eoincarey, I have asked around for you among our 737 crews and so far no one has heard anything. Not saying that it didn't happen because obviously your dad was there and it did.
Had it been experienced as a 'big deal' by either cockpit- or cabin crew, stories would be zinging along the grapevine by now. As there are no stories, I reckon it was considered a non-event by those involved.
Will PM you if I hear anything in the near future.
Had it been experienced as a 'big deal' by either cockpit- or cabin crew, stories would be zinging along the grapevine by now. As there are no stories, I reckon it was considered a non-event by those involved.
Will PM you if I hear anything in the near future.
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Sparkle
- if you wish to be pedantic, I would suggest ANY 737 (commercial aircraft?) could do so in 10 miles?
-err - did I not?
Please note my reply was to 'ESG' who thought V1 was ONLY the highest speed from which you can stop. It was NOT an attempt at redefinition of Vspeeds. Please do not read into posts what is not there?
Your time better spent addressing the request by 'eoincarey' as addressed by 'flapsforty? The rest of it is circular.
Just because your r/w is 10miles long doesn't mean you will be able to stop!
Eg. have you thought of your brakes?
Please note my reply was to 'ESG' who thought V1 was ONLY the highest speed from which you can stop. It was NOT an attempt at redefinition of Vspeeds. Please do not read into posts what is not there?
Your time better spent addressing the request by 'eoincarey' as addressed by 'flapsforty? The rest of it is circular.
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cheers for that flapsforty and BOAC. I'm just a humble PA28 pilot, V1 & V2 speeds dont really enter into my consiousness on takeoff, when it feels like flying, it flies!
ETC
ETC
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I shouldn't I know, but
Dear BOAC
Why do you feel personally addressed??
Do you always take everything so personally? "dear guys and girls" I wrote, not "Dear BOAC".
I agree: you can stop a flippin' tsunami on a 10m long r/w, dooh.
what I meant was that stopping after v1 you might not be in as good shape as you were 1 second ago, that's all. have a look: I mentioned "directional control", too.
Have you ever done a high speed reject, in anger, in your career?
I had a peek at your profile. Apart from being a Capt with A, and being an almighty, enviable, Ubermensch aka moderator of this forum it doesn't say that much.
could it be that you are a retired BA Capt thinking you have eaten wisdom with a spoon?
none of the above gives you the right to shoot me down like you have. I expressed an oppinion and I thought it was justified, that's what these forums are here for, right?
remember:respect is earned, not commanded!
Dear BOAC
Why do you feel personally addressed??
Do you always take everything so personally? "dear guys and girls" I wrote, not "Dear BOAC".
I agree: you can stop a flippin' tsunami on a 10m long r/w, dooh.
what I meant was that stopping after v1 you might not be in as good shape as you were 1 second ago, that's all. have a look: I mentioned "directional control", too.
Have you ever done a high speed reject, in anger, in your career?
I had a peek at your profile. Apart from being a Capt with A, and being an almighty, enviable, Ubermensch aka moderator of this forum it doesn't say that much.
could it be that you are a retired BA Capt thinking you have eaten wisdom with a spoon?
none of the above gives you the right to shoot me down like you have. I expressed an oppinion and I thought it was justified, that's what these forums are here for, right?
remember:respect is earned, not commanded!
